Here’s our latest interview with a millionaire as we seek to learn from those who have grown their wealth to high heights.
If you’d like to be considered for an interview, drop me a note and we can chat about specifics.
This interview took place in May.
My questions are in bold italics and their responses follow in black.
Let’s get started…
OVERVIEW
How old are you (and spouse if applicable, plus how long you’ve been married)?
We are both 51, married 28 years but dating since High School.
Do you have kids/family (if so, how old are they)?
Girl (28), boy (25), and girl (21).
What area of the country do you live in (and urban or rural)?
We live in the suburbs in the Northeast.
What is your current net worth?
$2,100,000
What are the main assets that make up your net worth (stocks, real estate, business, home, retirement accounts, etc.) and any debt that offsets part of these?
Assets
- $ 1,400,000 401K and IRA (Pretax)
- $ 50,000 Roth IRA
- $ 350,000 Personal Home
- $ 450,000 Vacation Rentals (2)
Liabilities
- $ 150,000 Mortgage Primary Home
EARN
What is your job?
I’m a self-employed computer consultant — for the past 15 years (No employees, no patience for that).
I’ve been in computer programming for over 25 years. Wife is an R.N for over 25 years.
What is your annual income?
2022 AGI: $200,000
That word “income” is always a tough one for me. Having your own business, it’s even tougher.
Is it Revenue? Is it Salary? Is it Profit? Is it taxable income?
My point is having my own business has been #1 boost to our family net worth.
Tell us about your income performance over time. What was the starting salary of your first job, how did it grow from there (and what you did to make it grow), and where are you now?
I come from a long line of blue collar hard working people. I was the first person to graduate college on my fathers’ side of the family.
Growing up things were very tight although I really didn’t know it until my mid teenage years. We never went hungry and always lived in the same solid house and we just played outside every day. We didn’t know we were poor, we just were kids and we played outside, pickup sports mostly. I had a great childhood.
I worry about today’s kids and video games (this coming from a 51-year-old who plays Xbox).
I started at 15 (I had to get “working papers”) at a fast food restaurant. I rode my bike roughly half a mile and worked probably 30 hours a week in high school. $4.15 an hour I was really raking it in.
I was a commuter in college and did a double major in 4 years — Computer Science and Business Management. Four round the clock years, fall, spring, summer, and even a winter break course in January some years.
It was not fun; I think my first financial goal was to make sure my kids would get a real college experience.
I came out of college in 1994 and immediately started at a large publicly traded company. I drove an hour and 20 minutes each way but appreciated the opportunity and learned a lot in 2 years. My starting salary was $30,000.
The company went through hard times, and I was told my position was going to be gone within 60 days. I found another job quickly at a much smaller company ~50 people.
Before the 60 days was up, the larger company found me another position. I ended up turning that down as I was much more excited about the smaller company and my commute was an hour each way instead of an hour and 20 min each way.
I stayed at that company for nearly 10 years and loved it. my salary was over 6 figures by the time I left. More importantly was the gained experience of doing so many different things because of the size of the company. I worked with very talented people who I am friends with and still see a few times a year.
I think most young people entering the workforce should strongly consider starting out at a smaller company. Big companies you could get lost and/or develop bad work habits. Small companies you can’t get lost because everyone is needed and you likely will be doing a variety of different roles.
Working at the small company gave me the confidence to go out on my own. I actually took another full-time employee role before going out on my own in yet another great company. I don’t pretend to be smart enough and know ahead of time the potential in the two companies I worked for spanning 15 years.
That was luck, however, whenever I went on an interview, I looked at it as a two-way street. Obviously, I want to impress that I am a good candidate, but equally important was if I considered the position and company interesting and challenging. When you think about it, you likely spend more time at work than with your friends and family. You have to really enjoy it or you will just be watching the clock ready to punch out.
What tips do you have for others who want to grow their career-related income?
- Effort will outperform talent most of the time. Working hard was instilled in my upbringing. It wasn’t a talk from my parents; it was just what I observed and then did instinctively. It amazes me when I see people purposely ducking work. If you picked a field you actually enjoy, this shouldn’t be an issue. Perhaps related to my next tip.
- Put your bleeping cell phone down. Up until covid sent everyone working from home, I am shocked at how many people regardless of age will look stare at their phones in meetings and simply not pay attention. When I see this over and over, my first thought is, you are not taking this meeting seriously, or worse yet, you don’t value my time. The odd thing is, I think I am in the minority here because it seems like it is becoming acceptable behavior. Perhaps I am just getting towards the twilight of my working career and I don’t “get it” anymore. My opinion is cell phone addiction is a real thing. I worry about our next generation.
- I have not had to job hop however it does seem more the norm than the exception. When you are thinking of perhaps moving on, talk to your boss. You don’t have to say you are thinking of leaving. Tell them you are ready for something more challenging. Ask them what you can do to help them and learn at the same time. Don’t be afraid to talk to your boss. I never was. Make them look good and more times than not it will benefit you as well.
What’s your work-life balance look like?
Early in my career I traveled over an hour to work near a major city. For the past 15 years I have worked within 15-minute drive to home.
Getting 2+ hours per day back in my life was a life changer, mood changer and overall, a huge life upgrade. Funny part is, I didn’t even realize how much impact my commute was. I simply got used to it. I had certain radio stations or CDs I would listen to, (we didn’t have podcasts back then you whipper-snappers).
For 15 years of self-employment my work has still been a priority but I was able to spend time as my kids were growing up, coach youth sports and go on many sports related trips for our children’s teams. My identify is too wrapped up in my work, a problem I struggle with and worry about in early or regular retirement.
That said, my work stress is mostly self-imposed not directly demanded by my work bosses or colleagues. I am working to improve in this area. Since I started working from home, I believe it has improved, or minimally given me even more time flexibility to have it be less impact to my family.
Do you have any sources of income besides your career? If so, can you list them, give us a feel for how much you earn with each, and offer some insight into how you developed them?
We have two vacation rental properties that operate at a slight loss. I do expect someday they will make money but in the 5th year of owning them they do not.
I justify it as somewhere we like to visit, diversification from the stock market and a gut feel it will get better.
COVID-19 certainly threw a monkey wrench in most vacation rentals. They both did appreciate to about double the purchase price so if I sell I would consider it a good investment, they simply don’t cash flow great.
SAVE
What is your annual spending?
Starting in 7/1/23 I expect monthly spending to be about 7K (since our youngest is now done college).
We no longer have college bills and young adult children all have careers.
What are the main categories (expenses) these spending breaks into?
- 21K Principal and Interest on primary home. I am on an accelerated pay down plan.
- 8K Vehicles / Maintenance / Gas.
- 8K Groceries/Meals/Entertainment
- 5K Cable/Internet/Utilities
- 6K Property Tax
- 10K Vacations (We go to our properties a lot, but pay for usually 1 other per year for the family)
- 25K Income Tax (Federal, State, Local)
Do you have a budget? If so, how do you implement it?
I don’t have a budget, we focus more on savings goals and percentages.
I feel a reason (excuse?) is needed here.
I over analyze money too much already, something I am trying to correct. I feel a formal budget would enhance the problem I already struggle with.
What percentage of your gross income do you save and how has that changed over time?
I consider saving as traditional saving and principal pay down.
I estimate between 401K saving, vacation rental house mortgage payoff , and primary home paydown.
We have saved close to 30% of gross the last few years, we saved more prior to my kids starting college.
We recently just celebrated our youngest graduating college. I have paid roughly $25K per year for 11 years (1 year of overlap) for all 3 children to make it through college in 4 years.
I am proud of their accomplishments and humbled we were able to contribute so they have minimal student loans.
What’s your best tip for saving (accumulating) money?
Work hard, like actually work hard. I feel like money will follow, it has for me. If it doesn’t then you need to switch companies.
I would say I am a fairly tough critic regarding work ethic and honest effort. My guess is I would actually recommend 10-15% of people I have worked with. Every person I would recommend is already well off because they work hard and they are never looking for a job.
As you can tell I take advantage of retirement accounts. I personally have done nearly all pre-tax since I am in the 22% marginal bracket currently. If you in the 10 or 12% marginal bracket I would lean towards Roth accounts.
What’s your best tip for spending less money?
Cook at home. An embarrassing amount of money we spend eating out.
Covid has helped improve on this, but we should still cook more.
When you get older going out to eat replaces a lot of other social activities. Even though I would like to change this as I don’t enjoy it because we go out too much, my friend groups don’t do too many other things at my age. We always say we need additional friends, we have enough “eating friends”.
What is your favorite thing to spend money on/your secret splurge?
Caribbean vacations. We have tried a bunch of places; Jamaica is our family favorite.
I have done some credit card hacking as well to increase the number of trips in the future.
I have mixed views on this. Canceling is a pain, and hours spent to $$$ saved not sure how great I do but I plan to keep doing this without overdoing it.
INVEST
What is your investment philosophy/plan?
My philosophy is centered around understanding my current and expected future marginal tax brackets.
I feel like I have read every interview on this site and this is rarely discussed. Perhaps I am looking at it all wrong. My big picture bet is, I am paying more now in taxes than I will in the future. I make good money now, we spend a lot now at least prior to this year (mortgage of the current house, college expenses and raising 3 kids over time).
My bet is I can get my spending down to 12% marginal or maybe (not likely) even 10% marginal rate. I also expect tax rates to go up, however my bet is that my spending will still allow me to be in the lower tax brackets and those lower brackets will be under 22%.
People say about the tax cuts expiring, I just don’t see it for the lower brackets. Even if they do, the money I need to spend each year should go down as I exhaust my mortgage and tax bracket ranges increase with inflation.
Inflation affects everyone but it affects people more that have large expenses. As our children leave the nest I expect our expenses to go down considerably. I also have everything I need and don’t need more clothes or gadgets. I am far from a minimalist but I do appreciate the movement and can relate to its teachings.
What has been your best investment?
When I was young and a full-time employee at the small company I mention, we had a record year.
At the company Xmas party they announced they were matching our contribution dollar for dollar, no cap.
I’m not even sure how that’s legal but they did it. I don’t know exactly how much my contribution was because it was so long ago, but it was a double up minimally plus the tax deduction.
What has been your worst investment?
Vacation rentals.
I don’t regret them but so far, they haven’t been a good investment. They have been a great source of couple and family vacations a few times each year. I am leaning towards selling one of them if it doesn’t drastically improve next year.
I suspect if I did AirBNB I could do much better but this is time I’m not willing to take time from my day job at this point, I might consider in the future. I still believe in the location for the long term.
What’s been your overall return?
Roughly 6-7%.
We have too many accounts, I have done some consolidation but I’m always just below the averages because of fees. Getting better in managing and reviewing the raw numbers here but still room for improvement.
While 6-7% is nothing too wonderful, I believe I will get the money out at a much cheaper rate than I put it in at. I focus on this (right or wrong) more than the returns.
I try to do low cost index funds but the employer 401k options dictate the fees.
How often do you monitor/review your portfolio?
Way, way too often. I use to think once I hit 1M I will relax and not look as often. That proved to be false.
I’m not even sure why I do it. I’m not truly worried. I spend way too much time in spreadsheets related to personal finance.
It really is on auto-pilot I just need to let it go and check quarterly instead of weekly or more. I’m determined to ease back on the over analyzing of money in general. We are fine, trust the plan.
NET WORTH
How did you accumulate your net worth?
No inheritance for me. I made above average money for a long time, I spent less than I made for a long time, and took full advantage of 401K’s. I honestly don’t remember when I first contributed, but I am guessing it was around 22 or 23 years old.
For many years we maxed out both me and my wife. I then eased off of what I would call hyper saving as our children started their college years because I wanted them not to worry about money as I did when I attended college.
What would you say is your greatest strength in the ESI wealth-building model (Earn, Save or Invest) and why would you say it’s tops?
In order I would #1 Earn, #2 Save, #3 Invest.
Because of my strategy investing nearly everything in pretax we are a bit constrained to the 401K plans the companies provide.
What road bumps did you face along the way to becoming a millionaire and how did you handle them?
No real road bumps. I did get fired once but I realize I was just unhappy and almost forced their hand.
I took 2 weeks and found another more fulfilling job. You must be happy in your job, it’s so important for long term success.
I certainly worked too much in my young career. I have a very understanding wife that just gets how I think and how my mind gravitates to work.
I do remember once my wife getting upset because I didn’t want to buy a new car. She was visibly upset and I realized my ultra-saving was getting too extreme. Seeing her upset (very rare) made me realize she was right. We drove that new car for many years and it was a great family car. We tend to buy new or newer cars and drive them for a long time.
What are you currently doing to maintain/grow your net worth?
Currently we max my wife’s 401k $30,000 because of the catchup provision. She also gets a match of around $3,000.
We could do more however because of my business I take distributions to take advantage of the QB deduction. We are in the 22% marginal tax bracket, so my decision is to take the QBI deduction of 20% instead of the employee contribution of 22%. For a 2% difference I would rather pay down debt instead of locking up more money for 9 years (until I am 59 ½). I know there are ways around this but most seem like more trouble than it’s worth unless you are really retiring early.
I made this decision for multiple reasons. I have such a large percentage of my net worth in tax deferred accounts already and I expect the QBI deduction to be taken away at some point. Also making a conscious decision to contribute to my wife’s 401k since she can’t benefit from QBI since she is a full-time employee.
In recent years I have used the money we aren’t saving directly in pretax 401K’s to reduce debt, purchase the vacation rentals and fund my children’s college expenses.
Do you have a target net worth you are trying to attain?
I change often but 2.5 MM is my current target for investments outside of the current real estate.
It’s fairly arbitrary as I have no immediate plans to retire, so just keep investing each year, as tax efficient as possible.
How old were you when you made your first million and have you had any significant behavior shifts since then?
47 when investments went over 1 million.
I wouldn’t say any significant behavior shifts, but I do sometimes look at personal capital and think about what it took to get here and reflect on how fortunate I am.
What money mistakes have you made along the way that others can learn from?
I wouldn’t say a mistake, but if I had it to do over, I would do an IRA before my company 401k (assuming there isn’t a company match).
Seems most of the 401K’s through companies have higher fees and people change jobs a lot more today than earlier in my career. I am advising my children to do an IRA before a 401K until they are ready to invest more than the IRA max.
What advice do you have for ESI Money readers on how to become wealthy?
Pick a career you love.
I have 3 children. Going into college 1 of the 3 knew what they wanted to do. As a parent I have found it very hard to help them as I knew what I wanted to do in 8th grade. It’s such a necessity though. You have to love what you do; the money will follow.
Another area I have strong feelings on is college. Most parents want the best for their kids. That is of course a great thing. My concern is many parents think they are doing the best for their children but might be doing them a disservice.
All 3 of my kids have gone to state schools. That allowed me to pay for the majority of their schooling — roughly $100,000 for a 4-year degree. While I didn’t forbid them to consider colleges outside the state you could say I really steered them heavily in state.
I see so many parents that allow their children to go way too deep into college debt. To compound this problem, they co-sign this debt because again, they think they are helping them.
I’ve even known of some cases where the parents had bad credit so the grand-parents cosigned. I actually get stressed out just hearing about these people who I know are good people, they are just making very bad decisions.
FUTURE
What are your plans for the future regarding lifestyle?
I probably am already in or close to one more year syndrome.
I still like what I do, waiting for youngest two children to leave the nest. Really in no hurry for them to leave, so I work for my own satisfaction, and to set a good example as my parent did for me. They just did it more out of necessity than I am currently.
What are your retirement plans?
I like to golf, play volleyball, hike and go to the gym and will continue as long as I am able.
We do like to travel but haven’t done it extensively outside of a week or two per year family vacations. I would like to try slow travel, sounds pretty neat as a concept.
I think I will always do some level of work not for money but for the mental stimulation. I also need purpose and structure in my day.
Are there any issues in retirement that concern you? If so, how are you planning to address them?
Like everyone health care is the wild card.
If something truly affordable comes along then my wife would likely retire early. She is a part time RN and really working to pad the 401k and pay for health-care.
As soon as we become grand-parents she is going to want to retire. She currently carries our benefits for the family. I see at least part time work for minimally for myself as a stepping stool to full retirement. I predict this around age 55.
MISCELLANEOUS
How did you learn about finances and at what age did it “click”?
In college I took a very good personal finance class and was genuinely interested in money.
While in college I also worked for a mortgage company part time which gave me a good understanding of credit and loans.
Who inspired you to excel in life? Who are your heroes?
My father is a veteran, hard worker and generous to a fault.
My mother was a stay-at-home mom and allowed me to have a great childhood along with great meals. She also worked outside the house and never sits still.
My father-in-law is still working on his own wood working business out of love for what he does, he is 86.
I am in awe of Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. The 80s and 90s were amazing time and I love reading biographies or watching documentaries about their work lives. I can’t imagine being that smart.
Do you have any favorite money books you like/recommend? If so, can you share with us your top three and why you like them?
The last lecture by Randy Pausch is probably the most powerful book I have ever read.
I was so impacted by the book. I also watched it given by the author on YouTube but I think the book is even better. It’s a great book / video to review around the holidays — really puts the scarcity of life into perspective. I guess this isn’t really a money book but to me it’s about the big picture and should still be considered.
The Simple Path to Wealth by JL Collins.
Classic, easy to follow and just validates that steady contributions will normally win long term.
I don’t understand Tesla or Bitcoin but hard not to be a little jealous sometimes, right?
One of the first FI blog posts I read was 1500 days “The Awakening.” This blog post captured my reasons why to FI better than I could articulate.
The Minimalists. As I said before I am not a minimalist but I aspire to move closer to it than I currently am. I think everyone can be more intentional with their spending which is how I view this movement. It’s way too extreme for me, but I can relate to many pieces.
Die with Zero. I agree with ESI, this was a bit repetitive, but it does make you think about things differently. I am not interested in having $10,000,000 at age 85. Carl at 1500 Days has been discussing this recently and I really find his writings and podcasts to be very aligned with my thinking.
Do you give to charity? Why or why not? If you do, what percent of time/money do you give?
This is an embarrassing category for me. I had a few years coaching youth sports with my kids.
Last few years, my charity has been targeted. I give large tips at restaurants and go fund me’s for local people in my community who have fallen on rough times. I think a DAF will be in my future plan as well.
I am a little bitter that I struggled so hard during college and received no help. I remember them telling me I made to much money to get help. But I worked all the time because I had to pay for college. It was a catch-22 that I couldn’t get out of. I worked 40 hours or more while going to college 4 years full time. It was worth it but it was painful at the time, and I lost a few years of my youth.
Hence tipping a little more than normal I feel rewards someone for working versus just giving money to my college or my kids colleges that I have already given more than enough to in my opinion.
Do you plan to leave an inheritance for your heirs (how do you plan to distribute your wealth at your death)? What are your reasons behind this plan?
I do plan on it……I’m not sure what that plan is yet.
I don’t expect any inheritance from my parents nor want any. That said, I think I have a bit of an unhealthy relationship with money. I check net worth and bank accounts way more often than a normal person would.
I’m actually envious my wife has little interest of our net worth. I do inform her of our standings to which she jokes, when can I retire? I yearn for the day I can be carefree but I’m not certain what that number is.
Being free from worrying about money is a powerful and healthy thing I assume. I am not worry free but I probably should be at this point or at least much less worried. If I can toe the line between making my children worry free but not making them lazy or feeling entitled that’s the plan I aim to formulate.
Step 1 was to graduate with very little college debt. They all have some skin in the game but it will be about 5% of what I put out.
While you have a fair amount of money, as you transition to not working, I think you need to fund your taxable accounts to make things easier pre-59.5.
For your spending, you should have enough money — especially if you can pay off that house.
This is a fair point, that said I have previously decided that I would always max the traditional 401k as long as I was in the 22% bracket. I still plan to still do this but with the kiddos now starting their careers I can save more than just the pre-tax maximum so I will almost be forced to save in taxable accounts, as you mention probably not a bad thing.
I agree with this statement. I would sell the vacation properties and use the proceeds to build a taxable brokerage account position.
Insurance expenses (health, auto, home, umbrella, life) were not listed on list of expenses. These can be a chunk of money and a significant % of your annual expenses.
Auto was in my estimate of 8K a year, this has recently gone down as only 1 child remains on my auto insurance. life is a term policy ~80 per month, house is about the same 80 per month.
Health is currently roughly 650 per month from my R.N wife. She is part time which is why it is high. I have read many articles on ACA and how to make income low to get subsides. I have mixed feelings on the subject and I’m sure it will change by the time actually need it.
Your point of these items being missing is not lost on me. I’ve never been a huge budgeter, instead electing to paying myself first with saving versus a true budget. I’m only a few months removed from having no kids on the payroll so I do aim to get a handle on a more detailed / granular list of expenses. It has already changed quite a bit also since I authored this 2 of 3 are actually out of the nest.
I really enjoyed the interview! I would love to if you could give some more light/advice on how you managed to help to support all your kids in college (tuition/spending). Did they work? Did you have 529 accounts? Did you have a separate account for college? Very impressive
All 3 of my kids worked at 16. I believe it very important, however I never wanted them to work near as many hours as I did. You are only young once, I try to encourage a work hard / play hard attitude. Their work money paid for gas for their cars and spending money, but I bought their cars and covered insurance. Car insurance for kids is criminal how high it is. If I required them to pay that then they would have had to work more than I wanted them to.
I also contributed to 529 plans. I did have them take out some loans but they are minimal and was used more for having some skin in the game. My oldest I matched her payments and she has them paid off, the younger 2 have very minimal balances they weren’t paying on because of the pause.
One other “trick” is to have them take college courses in high school. In our state we had dual credit classes you paid for and others where you didn’t pay for but they needed to take a test after. We did the dual credit ones that cost money but that cost was 25-30% of what it would cost in college. Senior years at high school can be worthless post covid, if you can get your children to work a little bit the savings can really help and also let them graduate in 4 years if they change their major because they have this head start.
Many of our local high schools allow seniors to leave school with a very minimal workload in their senior year since covid. Not a great head start for college.
Thank you! Very helpful
Great share. And I agree with the approach.
Don’t be too hard on yourself on the real estate return. Based on what you said , you’ve gotten 20% per year for the 5 years that you’ve owned the property. Plus you’ve gotten the depreciation each year – likely another +$15,000 per year.
That’s a great return. Cashflow may be another thing but the depreciation factored into the cashflow might put you in the black there as well.
Nice job on the 2 properties.
Keep it up !
I did buy at the right time, but I have to think they are roughly topped out right now. I just love the area, I’m actually there now so with the personal use I justify it as acceptable losses. The depreciation is low because they are short term vacation rentals it’s over 39 years instead of 27.5. I have followed real estate for so long and still have a bit of imposter syndrome.
Curious, where are the vaca rentals? Our experience is prices have increased dramatically (post COVID) and inventory/availability are limited in many areas, especially SE coastal areas, SW Florida especially, desert SW, etc. I know we’ve struggled finding acceptable sites in SW FL.
Myrtle Beach area. To be clear the prices if I sell have almost doubled in the 6 years I have owned them, however the rents haven’t increased as rapidly and the costs have gone up.
Our HOA is very reasonable at $330 per month however the external building insurance has gone up over 250%. We have been told this is mostly because of claims paid in Florida and many insurers have pulled out of the market entirely driving the available supplier pools much lower.
That is interesting that you resonated with 1500 Days and Mile High FI, because I have found them to be pretty genuine and have really enjoyed their content. They can be a little raw sometimes, but their humor is hilarious. I listen to their podcast as soon as it comes out.
The awakening post I referenced really hit me and unlike most I found him before MMM. The podcast is quirky but I listen religiously. We are also close in age and he is also a former computer programmer….I am a little jealous of his tesla position though !
I have my projections on what I think our portfolio and spending will be, but it’s just that. A projection. Once the wife stops having a paycheck, we will be able to figure out our taxes for the 2025 year and that should be a basic model for a few years. I can control the amount of money I take out of our IRAs so I will probably start out just by taking out enough to pay the upcoming bills instead of just a regular amount of money per month. If I think we take out too much, we can just donate a chunk, but in reality, going a few thousand over the next bracket is immaterial. Getting a large windfall and going halfway into the next bracket might be a small impact. People that micro manages to stay in the lowest bracket are missing out. You saved money for a reason. Taxes were deferred for 30-40 years. Inflation will move brackets and brackets will expand and contract without tax rates moving much. Or rates will change as will the brackets. We made our incomes in the last 20 years during a great bull market. Another like it could happen, or the market could be stale for 5 years. Either way, we control the majority of what we spend. Our basics are covered. Health is always a wild card.
Micromanage may be a little strong. I have a target that I won’t need (or want) to actually spend more than the 12% bracket allows. I suspect that I actually won’t be too close to the top but I to admit I don’t have a great sense of future expenses. My children are just starting to leave the nest. 2 of 3 gone, last one is just starting her career but expect her home at least 2 years because she is single and we are the coolest parents 🙂
I won’t deny myself if we want to spend more, I just think I’m doing everything now that I want and still saving a good % of my income. When I actually stop all saving and switch to spending I suspect it will be maybe 5-6K per month, time will tell, but I might as well distribute up to the end of 12% to pad the after-tax money buckets of which I have little outside of a lot of home equity.