Millionaire Interview 480

Here’s our latest interview with a millionaire as we seek to learn from those who have grown their wealth to high heights.

If you’d like to be considered for an interview, drop me a note and we can chat about specifics.

This interview took place in March. It’s a long one, so we’ll be breaking it up into two posts.

My questions are in bold italics and their responses follow in black.

OVERVIEW

How old are you (and spouse if applicable, plus how long you’ve been married)?

Hello, and thank you all for reading my interview. I am 47 and my spouse is 18 years older than me (sometimes only 17 depending on the time of year when our birthday’s fall) and recently sailing into the medicare eligible 65 year old.

We have been married since 2011. I have been a reader and follower of ESI for a long time and have often thought of doing a millionaire interview but was reluctant because I know I have been privileged in life and felt as though no one wanted to read another story of privilege, but I think this forum looks at success and “privilege” differently, so I will put aside my insecurities–here goes.

Do you have kids/family (if so, how old are they)?

The short answer is no. However, the opportunity to have children presented itself around 10 years ago.

I have a family member who married a person of Chinese descent. She came from an area where it is customary for family members to offer to be surrogates to family members who were unable to have children. What a gift!

My cousin and his wife offered surrogacy as they were finished having children. My spouse and I were very surprised, honored and humbled at the offer and while we considered it for several months, running scenarios, thinking about how we would need to change our jobs, our lives not to mention the financial implications, we agonized over the details–probably too much.

We ultimately decided that adding a child to our lives was not the right decision at the time. Now, 10 years later I wonder if maybe we treated the decision too much like a transaction?

I realize now with a little more grey in my hair that having a family and children is not a transactional event or something to “automate” as we did our financial lives, but rather a deeply emotional commitment to completely changing our lives for the benefit of another human being. Further, I realize, for better or worse, that having children is one of life’s treasures that we will not experience.

That seems like a lot to answer a simple question, but I feel like it is relevant to our overall path toward financial independence.

What area of the country do you live in (and urban or rural)?

I want to be specific here because a financial independence journey in the city in which we live is often thought of as impossible. We have lived in New York City for most of our adult lives.

I moved to NYC in 1998 to attend college. My spouse moved here in 1980 to start a career.

I went to a large private university, it was one of two or three colleges I applied for and happened to be the “best” one to receive admission. Looking back I am not sure why I limited my applications.

I think “back then” the drive to higher education was salient but it seems to be rather even higher stakes now. I was very naive and certainly had no clue what I was doing or what I was going to do with my life or education; it was just that college was the next item on the list of growing up.

I see work colleagues take months exploring colleges, investing in college coaches, and spreadsheets weighing pros and cons at various colleges and universities, not just US-based but worldwide–my parents just did not approach college with such aggression.

I am not sure I would be as successful if I were applying now to the same colleges as I know I am not as spirited as probably is required, moreover, referring back to the prior question, if we did have children I cannot fathom the stress related to the competition in higher education.

At this university, I was accepted into the school of performing arts and drama. I did not realize how coveted this program was and how privileged I was to obtain admission, however, as I mentioned my personality was no match for others who clearly realized what they wanted from this program.

Therefore, I quickly realized that acting/drama life and its pursuits were not for me. After 2 semesters and much wailing and gnashing of teeth (i love to say that and many people look at me crosseyed) mostly because I did not know what to do but I figured it out and I moved to the school of education, took a few summer classes to get on track toward something more–in the words of my parents “secure and predictable” in its post graduation job prospects.

I bring my parents into the discussion here because not only were their frugal tendencies influential on me but they were exceedingly generous in their emotional support and no shortage of financing for my undergraduate degree at this university through my mother working overtime and making financial sacrifices for me. All this in addition to their patience, wisdom and guidance in life matters.

In so many words, the checkbook was going to close if I did not decide on a major quickly. I did not know it yet, but this advice/requirement set a foundation for a very rewarding career path.

My spouse being mentored by a chef and restaurant owner in Austin, Texas chose a career path in a professional kitchen rather than attending college. This path, while not always high paying, has satisfied creative tendencies and also a caring and nurturing personality.

While it took some years to figure out a lifestyle that was favorable, the career path has proven satisfying financially and creatively. Finishing college did not happen for my spouse, there is some regret in that regard, but the career path chosen has been a success without a degree.

What is your current net worth?

Here I will include both my spouse and I in our net worth. This is because while we are disparate in age, we both arrived at seeking financial freedom simultaneously and worked side by side very hard at purposeful saving, investing, and spending (and thrift) to achieve our financial goals.

We both contributed as much as possible toward the goal. And while it was not a smooth ride by any means, it was a journey we consciously chose together.

Our total investable assets across all accounts is $4.5 million. We have a mortgage-free apartment and the “bank value” at our last mortgage refinance a number of years ago was 725k, this puts our total net worth at $5.225 million.

Who knows what the market would pay for this apartment but it does not matter as we have no real plans to sell as it is paid for and our common charges are reasonable and moving to purchase something else would certainly increase our cost of living. It is a strange situation to be living in NYC AND have a low cost of (housing) living.

I know it is an accomplishment to have a paid off home, but it was intentional to pay off the apartment AND invest as much as possible. I worked overtime in order to do both–also a fortunate situation to be in.

There are other fine art and collectables with not so insignificant value, but those are keepsakes which would unlikely ever be sold.

The apartment purchase was intentional on my part. I knew that commuting in this area of the country is soul draining and wanted to be in Manhattan for mostly that reason.

My commute to work is 20 minutes on foot or 10 minutes on bicycle which I primarily use. I have NO commute anxiety and want to encourage anyone who has a long commute to thoroughly consider the benefits (if any) of living far from work.

Yes, we have less space, but my commute time at the end of my career will not be measured in years. That said, when I purchased the apartment, I was single at the time and wanted something reasonably priced that would not make my single self house poor, and somewhere I could live into retirement (no stairs, an elevator, close to public transportation if needed–though I ride my bicycle everywhere no matter what–even if the event requires a tuxedo).

Despite statistically only having the chance of living there for 10-12 years as the average homeowner, I had a long-term outlook on housing (we have been there nearly 15 years). A few months after the purchase, I met my spouse and we certainly could have sold and bought something more “luxurious” (and in hindsight maybe should have) but given our pecuniary thriftiness we decided to keep the place as we wanted to use extra money for other endeavors.

As most know, living in NYC, costs can spiral out of control rapidly. So, this apartment fits the description of a long-term and affordable investment.

While it is by no means a luxury high-rise setting in the most desirable of neighborhoods, we have made the best of it with what it is–a nice kitchen with chef-level appliances, a nice bathroom, and well decorated. On the flip side, we can be absent for weeks on end without a worry.

Otherwise, we have no debt, and we pay our credit card bill in full every month.

What are the main assets that make up your net worth (stocks, real estate, business, home, retirement accounts, etc.) and any debt that offsets part of these?

We have not pursued other avenues of wealth building in terms of real estate or businesses. We are human capital, and I know that about myself and my spouse.

We both work very hard at our jobs and take pride in doing the best job we can, but we know it’s ultimately working for others. Further, we do know that human capital is limited by age and health and that is why we purposefully have prioritized our investment accounts over using our credit cards ie: spending.

The primary investment choice is (inside index funds) a maximum contribution to work 401k’s for each of us and a contribution “until it hurts” addition to our after tax portfolio, as well as an HSA. We developed a written financial plan and it was put into action around 2013 and it has served us well over the last 13 or so years.

It has been automated over these years and as you can see by our investable net worth, our contributions and the widely discussed bull market over the last decade has driven gains consistently–almost to the point where I am nervous for so many new highs (how many more can we have?) as we have not had many great “blood on the street” buying opportunities. As Nick Maggiulli says, we “just keep buying”, automated bank transfers to our taxable account every Monday no matter what–but a bargain now and then would be nice.

Perhaps this should be in the investment failure section but I’ll include it here. There were a few years where we thought a 2nd house in the Hudson Valley area of New York State would be nice.

This endeavour into real estate was not as expected–definatly not the “shower idea” I conceived–everything sounds good in the shower.

We had A LOT of friends in the area and enjoyed spending time together and city life often did not allow time to unite, but in the “country” we could have weekend hikes, meet-ups, and dinners together, so we were hooked on the idea.

We found a lovely house in a setting of apple orchards and grape vines, so we purchased it–a reasonable house and made renovations to it. The spring we moved in we discovered living among farms and agriculture means loud machinery and chemical spraying. What a disaster.

This discovery was VERY unexpected and sad as we loved the area and the house but, needless to say we put the house up for sale after about 15 months. Thankfully, it sold the day we listed for cash nearly 300k more than we paid.

We netted about 175k after renovations and immediately lump-sum deposited the sale proceeds into our taxable account–and that is the end of our real estate endeavours. I sleep much better at night just making weekly contributions to our taxable accounts and 401ks.

My internal motto is simple simple simple in as many aspects of my life as possible, especially the big 3–housing, transportation, and food.

EARN

What is your job?

I am a nurse anesthetist. I am also the chief nurse anesthetist of my private group.

If memory serves, there has been a “6-figure” interview of a Nurse Anesthetist in the past (2021 according to ESI website) which was rewarding to read.

Many do not know what a nurse anesthetist is, also known as a CRNA, but we are advanced practice nurses who have, before going to advanced training, worked several years as intensive care unit nurses. We then obtain advanced degree training in nurse anesthesia similar to a nurse practitioner but we do not have school together.

Our training is quite different, so the schools of nurse anesthesia generally are separate from nurse practitioners. Nurse anesthesia education is now a 3-4 year training program with the terminal degree of doctor of nurse anesthesia practice.

I know it is strange, “doctor-nurse,” but the ‘doctor’ part is, for me, academic in title. However, there is debate whether nurse anesthetists should introduce themselves as “doctor”. That is a debate for another location.

I mentioned above about being encouraged by my parents to seek an education that has solid career prospects upon graduation, and nursing was encouraged by my mother–also a life long nurse (still working a shift 2 times per month at 73 years). So I went with a nursing career path.

While in school however, I had no idea what my long-term prospects for a nursing career were. Most student nurses were eyeing being a nurse practitioner, which had no interest to me, and thankfully in my senior year, my advisor introduced me to her friend– a nurse anesthetist –who mentored me and encouraged me to pursue nurse anesthesia.

I again had no idea what the educational requirements or the career itself entailed but I saw the job my mentor had and it seemed to fit my personality.

At the time, I applied to 1 university program and thankfully received admission in 2004. Since that time, the demand for this career and its salary has exponentially skyrocketed.

But going back to school days, for me, school never came “easy.” I was a solid B/B+ student but I studied VERY hard and MANY hours, I knew this about myself, I knew I needed HOURS on the books.

So, I had mountains of note cards, notebooks, and memorizing techniques both in undergraduate training and graduate training.

I say this because if there is someone here who thinks they are not smart enough or eligible for any particular career that is of interest, I want to say persistence and hard work will pay off. I was never top of my class but I knew my information backward and forward giving me the confidence in a challenging career.

So, finally and thankfully again, my hardworking parents helped me through graduate school and into a career rewarding financially and emotionally.

My spouse as a career chef, through mentoring and on-the-job training, worked in restaurants around NYC. There was no formal training, and while the career was rewarding, it was physically challenging and poorly compensated, with few to no benefits.

Eventually, close to burnout, a position through a friend opened and through that door the world of private chef work opened. Now in a long-term private position for 1 (stoopidly rich) family, there is work/life balance, good pay and benefits (including 401k, a match vacation and health care) which was rare for the early career portion of the restaurant business.

What is your annual income?

Last year, my income was $305k, and my spouse was $170k. The numbers, even as I look at them, are very high given we are “a nurse” and “a chef”.

Partly due to demand and inflation, but also partly due to the specific skill set our careers require, the compensation is commensurate. My job requires long hours at times, caring for individuals with multi-system organ failure, pediatrics, or trauma.

The job is exceedingly rewarding for me, but also physically, emotionally, and mentally draining. Largely at the end of my work week, I require a lot of personal rehabilitation time.

I understand this is personal as others can work endless hours and still have energy, but this is not me. I fully need every hour of my time off to recover and be back and ready for the next week.

I feel like it is important for me to show up for my work and patients refreshed and ready. There is no room for careless mistakes in the operating room.

My spouse also has a physically demanding job, but it is not as fast-paced or critical as mine. So I’d say the work/life balance as a private chef is better in that regard.

Further, the job of a private chef is rewarding in the sense that connections are created through food and the experience surrounding the meals. The summertime when the family entertains can be more hectic and fast paced, but the “fun” factor increases with the type of food created and the chef “tools” available at the summer house that are not available at the NYC apartment.

Tell us about your income performance over time. What was the starting salary of your first job, how did it grow from there (and what you did to make it grow), and where are you now?

Like many others here, working as teenagers started as paper routes and fast food jobs. And indeed for my spouse and me, that was true.

I worked at a fast-food restaurant in my hometown for most of my high school career. That job maxed out at 7$ per hour.

I look back and compare that to what would be my hourly rate now and marvel at the span between the two numbers, given that at its basic level all that separates me from that number now is higher education. For context, my first job out of anesthesia school paid $125k but came with a large sign on bonus, the subsequent years increased in salary anywhere from 3-9% per year.

Essentially there are few years where my income was below $200k due to bonuses and overtime. Now my income is purely salary as I rarely work overtime.

Also, for my spouse, the initial restaurant jobs paid single-digit dollar numbers and growing with experience and demand for a niche role in cooking to a significant salary so many years later.

What tips do you have for others who want to grow their career-related income?

I fear what I did to grow my career-related income would not work outside the nursing profession. I am in the fortunate position to have always had the opportunity for overtime and bonuses.

It is commonly said in financial independence circles that thrift can only help grow wealth so far, but income has no upside. While this is true for me also, as I stated above, human capital is what drives my income.

If I want to make more money, I have to work more, and while it is at a premium rate, it is still overtime (aka time lost). So for me thrift and income are hand in hand.

In my early career, I hustled like crazy, I worked overnight, weekends and took on call shifts for myself and others who gave them up–it was easy to just show up and make the overtime rate, plus it helped reach the social security maximum for the year, keeping the income all in one place!.

There was a period where jumping around to different jobs came with large sign-on and retention bonuses for CRNAs, but moving employers did not appeal to me. There are significant “non-monetary” benefits to the hospital I work at and missing those would certainly affect my quality of life.

My director is excellent, my colleagues are wonderful, I have rapport with the surgeons I work with, and anyone in the OR knows that trust and communication are of utmost importance, and leaving jobs over and over to start new relationships and rapport is difficult.

That said, with all the extra working overtime over the years, I realized I was heading toward burnout. I had interests I wanted to pursue, but put them on hold because it was so easy to just work and have no time for anything else.

I see that among my colleagues, and I understand it, but fortunately, my past self hustled to save and invest money, not to spend money. So now, I, along with my spouse, have built a retirement foundation that will likely be sufficient for our needs far into the future.

For my spouse, there is not an opportunity for overtime, so we enjoy the “perks” that come with the job–leftovers being one of them. Since there are SO many leftovers that will otherwise be discarded, they all go toward my lunches, and I’ve been thankfully able to take my lunch to work for my entire career.

Thank goodness because have you ever been in a hospital cafeteria?

I would say for those in medical careers, geoarbitrage is an important consideration to grow income and career opportunities rather than job hopping–especially if 1 person is the primary income generator. Likely, the salary and benefits and taxes are more favorable in other locations.

I probably would have considered another city if I had not met my spouse, as life in NYC does, over time, become difficult–noise, crowds, taxes (state AND local city takes a big chunk).

However, there was not a wide net for private chefs in other markets, and the family my spouse chose is very generous, so it was worth our while to remain in NYC. Additionally, being here for so many years, we have formed excellent relationships and friendships that would be difficult to leave.

What’s your work-life balance look like?

Early in my career, there were nights, weekends, on-call, and overtime. Now that I have aged and grown my investable assets, I do not need “extra” and therefore, have settled into a schedule where I work 3 13-hour shifts each Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday.

There are a number of breaks in the day and I have ample administrative time for my chief duties. I have no complaints about what seems like a long shift, as I enjoy a 4-day weekend every weekend.

Couple this schedule with a VERY generous paid time off and holiday bank and my time at work is very reasonable.

My spouse also, in recent years, has enjoyed a more balanced work life as the family has grown both in children and staff, therefore adding another full-time chef (yes, 2 full-time chefs). They are very good at making sure their employees are well compensated and moreover well fed.

There is no budget for meals or any type of food; people rarely leave the employment of this family. Simultaneously, there is an expectation that each employee “owns” their position and carries out their duties in a professional manner no matter their position.

Do you have any sources of income besides your career? If so, can you list them, give us a feel for how much you earn with each, and offer some insight into how you developed them?

Aside from very rare overtime, there are no additional income sources. Also, occasionally my spouse may work on an extra special dinner party for an extended family member at work as an extra, but that is rare.

Mostly, our portfolio provides a reasonable amount of interest and dividends (reinvested for now), but we have no side hustles. That is not to say we don’t have additional “streams of income.”

When I became acquainted with the phrase, “the average millionaire has 7 streams of income,” I was discouraged and thought I’ll never have that. But as I count my streams, I’m up to 4 (earned income, dividends, interest, capital gains).

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Great start, huh?

Stay tuned as we’ll share part two soon!