Here’s our latest interview with a millionaire as we seek to learn from those who have grown their wealth to high heights.
If you’d like to be considered for an interview, drop me a note and we can chat about specifics.
This interview took place in August.
My questions are in bold italics and their responses follow in black.
Let’s get started…
OVERVIEW
How old are you (and spouse if applicable, plus how long you’ve been married)?
Late 20-something female. (By the time this is published, I’ll be an early 30-something female, lol.)
I was originally a Free Money Finance reader, and as you’ll see below, I learned a lot from John’s posts on his other blog and am thrilled at the chance to connect with him and other experts on the MMM forum. Every day when I would wait for the bus to head to college, I would pour over Free Money Finance.
Reading John’s Free Money Finance posts along with comments from the regular posters there such as Mike H., Apex, and Old Limey helped solidify financial principles that have stuck with me since.
Do you have kids/family (if so, how old are they)?
My partner and I keep finances separate, and we do not have any kids.
But we do have a couple of fur babies that bring us joy, laughter, and love every day!
What area of the country do you live in (and urban or rural)?
I currently live in a small town in the Mid-Atlantic region as both my and my partner’s jobs are here, but will likely be moving to the Mountain West or Pacific Northwest in the next year or so to be closer to our families.
What is your current net worth?
A tiny bit over a million.
What are the main assets that make up your net worth (stocks, real estate, business, home, retirement accounts, etc.) and any debt that offsets part of these?
I don’t own any real estate, and nearly all of it is in retirement and brokerage accounts.
EARN
What is your job?
I am corporate counsel for a company based in my state.
Prior to moving in-house, I worked at a BigLaw firm in Manhattan.
What is your annual income?
With bonus and long-term incentive compensation, I make around $200,000.
Tell us about your income performance over time. What was the starting salary of your first job, how did it grow from there (and what you did to make it grow), and where are you now?
I graduated a couple of years early from high school, so I was a bit younger than the average first-year associate at the firm. BigLaw firms all follow the same salary scale, so I made what all first-year associates make in my first year.
Firms tend to have a “keeping up with the Joneses” mentality when it comes to salary, so as soon as one firm raises salaries, the others follow suit. That need to keep up with the BigLaw Joneses is awesome for associates like me!
In terms of what I did to make my income performance grow, honestly nothing. Raises in BigLaw have nothing to do with an individual lawyer’s performance and all to do with what the BigLaw market (i.e., peer BigLaw firms) set as the market base salary and bonus.
As long as I met my firm’s minimum billable hour requirement each year, I was guaranteed the market bonus.
Moving in-house meant my salary decreased, and the 5-figure salary increases that I was receiving while in BigLaw are no longer in the picture. That said, as a very wise man very recently pointed out to me, my net worth is what it is because I started with a six-figure salary from my first job after law school.
What tips do you have for others who want to grow their career-related income?
If someone is interested in working at a BigLaw firm, then the strategy is relatively straightforward: go to a good law school, get a high enough GPA, and interview decently well. Going to a good law school and getting a good GPA are the main factors that will land a BigLaw firm job.
I knew going into the law firm that the partnership route did not really interest me, so I sought out opportunities known as “secondments” with clients of the firm. Essentially, when an in-house legal department has a short-term gap in coverage (say, for maternity leave as an example), there is an opportunity for an attorney at an outside law firm to fill that gap.
The associate is still employed by the law firm and gets exposure to one of the firm’s clients. In my experience, this type of secondment opportunity is a win for all three parties involved.
For the firm, it’s a win because it gets one of its associates embedded within a client; for the client, it’s a win because the firm generally provides a healthy discount in providing the associate; and for an associate like me, it was a win because I still got paid my BigLaw salary and got exposure to the in-house legal world.
In my years in BigLaw, I did two of these secondments and learned how valuable those opportunities were when searching for my in-house position. People hire people.
During the two secondments, I met quite a number of in-house legal counsel and stayed in touch with those I grew close to. When the time came for me to look for in-house opportunities, I reached out to a few folks who I had worked with in the past.
One of those attorneys, who had since left the original company that I had worked with them at, had an opening at their new company. It was much easier to apply and go through the interview process because I already had been vetted and had a friendly face at the company.
What’s your work-life balance look like?
While I was at the law firm, my work-life balance was relatively non-existent. I would go to work, bill my 10 hours, come home, and likely bill a bit more.
During COVID, the firm went remote, and I moved to my current state. During the pandemic, I learned a lot about myself, and it solidified my decision that the time had come to make a change in my career with an eye toward work-life balance when the firm asked us to come back to the Manhattan office.
Do you have any sources of income besides your career? If so, can you list them, give us a feel for how much you earn with each, and offer some insight into how you developed them?
No. I would love to have a side hustle someday, but for now, my only source of income is my career.
I enjoy writing quite a bit, so perhaps a creative writing outlet that could parlay into a side hustle income may be something I look to pursue in the future. (If anyone has any ideas or would be willing to chat about this, I would love to hear your advice!)
SAVE
What is your annual spending?
In the pre-COVID days (and this is definitely going off of memory), my annual spending ranged between $40,000 to $50,000.
That number went way down with COVID after I moved out of New Jersey to my current Mid-Atlantic state (since I no longer paid rent on my New Jersey apartment).
What are the main categories (expenses) this spending breaks into?
My main expense was rent. When I began as a first-year associate, my rent for a 1-bedroom was $1500.
By the time I left, rent had become $2500. It was still considered a steal since the train was literally a 2-minute walk away; I did not need to pay New York City taxes; but I could be in Manhattan within a reasonable amount of time.
Do you have a budget? If so, how do you implement it?
No, I do not have a budget. After reading so many of ESI’s millionaire interviews, that is definitely something I want to get better at and start tracking.
As of now, however, my first principle in budgeting is to save at least half of my income and then I can do what I want with the rest.
What percentage of your gross income do you save and how has that changed over time?
My primary goal was to save at least half of my income every year.
What’s your best tip for saving (accumulating) money?
This has been a consistent theme in prior ESI interviews, so as you would expect, this is not earth-shattering. Basically, it’s to figure out how much you want to invest each month.
From each paycheck, transfer that amount to your brokerage account, and with what’s remaining, you can spend the rest. Invest first, spend second.
What’s your best tip for spending less money?
My main tip is to know what brings you (and not anyone else, including peers, law firm partners, or romantic partners) joy.
The following is the best example that I can think of to demonstrate what I mean. Most Friday nights, associates in my class year would head out to whatever restaurant was on everyone’s mind that week for a fancy end-of-week dinner.
I would be invited, but would always politely decline as I wanted Friday nights to myself, and I wanted to be alone after a stressful work week. While I love eating out (see more below), I am not a fan of the taste of alcohol, so I was not a huge drinker, and I knew that all kinds of alcoholic beverages would be free flowing at those Friday night dinners and that the bill would be equally large.
I was not a huge fan of spending a three-figure amount each week at those Friday night dinners and would say my goodbyes at the office, and breathe a sigh of relief after heading down the elevator bank.
When I was a first-year associate, I stumbled on a thrift store in Midtown on a random Friday evening after work. As I browsed through the aisles, I remember being shocked at the nearly never-worn designer clothes and dresses that I was coming across at nearly 90% off what the owner had originally paid.
And even better, certain color tags were even further on sale, which made the deal that much sweeter. The best deal, I later learned, was to shop on Wednesdays as all clothes were 50% off.
Needless to say, I visited that store nearly every week during the middle of the week for the remainder of my time at the firm. It brought a much-needed break during the middle of the week, and I loved the serene, peaceful feeling that I received each time I would walk into the store and knew that I might find some amazing deals that day.
During a big client meeting, I had to internally smile when one of my fellow associates complimented my dress and remarked how expensive it must have been (when in reality, it cost a grand total of $7).
I will say that I was a bit shy about introducing my thrift store habits to my partner when I met him. After dating for a few months, he asked me on a Wednesday evening what I wanted to do, and I sheepishly admitted that I wanted to go dress shopping at a store in Midtown.
He wanted to join, and as we walked into the store, he laughed, and to my surprise, he loved the fact that I was a thrift store queen. Not only is being able to be my frugal self a huge relief but also finding a partner who enjoys thrifting as much as I do makes me a very lucky girl.
What is your favorite thing to spend money on/your secret splurge?
Without a doubt, my favorite thing to spend money on is to eat out at restaurants with my partner. We both love eating out, and New York City has an endless supply of amazing restaurants.
Now that I am in a different state, and as we both enjoy trying out new places, I enjoy eating out at those new places in my new state and am always on the hunt for new restaurants I want to try!
INVEST
What is your investment philosophy/plan?
I am a very boring index fund investor.
What has been your best investment?
Index funds.
What has been your worst investment?
During the crypto craze, I **almost** bought Coinbase at their IPO.
What’s been your overall return?
I have been in index funds this entire time, so whatever has been the market return. I tend to believe in the set-and-forget philosophy where the only two days that matter are the day you buy and the day you sell.
The rest is just noise.
How often do you monitor/review your portfolio?
Sometimes I look at it weekly (and thereby violate my “the only two days that matter” principle) when the market is going up.
And other times, such as whenever the market is going down, I will only look at it quarterly.
NET WORTH
How did you accumulate your net worth?
I wish I could say that I played a huge part in accumulating this net worth. Rather, it was a three-fold function of luck and being at the right place at the right time.
One, I was born to my parents who instilled in me the value of hard work and education, paid for that education, and allowed me to start my career with no debt. Second, I found Free Money Finance during my undergrad days, so I had a solid set of personal finance principles to follow.
Third, by having no debt and armed with the “save and invest” mentality, I invested a large chunk of my BigLaw paycheck each month for the several years that, by complete luck and happenstance, the stock market saw huge growth. It was truly a case of being at the right place at the right time.
What would you say is your greatest strength in the ESI wealth-building model (Earn, Save or Invest) and why would you say it’s tops?
Compounding is truly the 8th wonder of the world. In order for compounding to occur, one must invest. In order to invest, one must save. And in order to save, one must earn.
To put it simply: all three parts, E, S, and I, have been equally important in my journey.
What road bumps did you face along the way to becoming a millionaire and how did you handle them?
Comparison is the thief of joy. And its corollary: Enough is a feast.
I try to remember these principles when I feel emotions of envy, jealousy, and sloth.
What are you currently doing to maintain/grow your net worth?
Put my head down at work and do my job, so the portfolio can do its job.
Do you have a target net worth you are trying to attain?
During my first year at the BigLaw firm, I created a “net worth” map that led from where I was then (zero net worth) to where I hoped to be when I turned 40. That year, according to the net worth map, I would become a millionaire and then I would plan for the future.
Due to being in the right place at the right time, that number occurred earlier (because of the factors above), and I am at that number around a decade or so before that date.
When I first started reading Free Money Finance, I used to have a very, very stretch goal of 10 million back when I was younger, had more energy, and was much more ambitious. These days, however, that number is too far out of reach for me to even contemplate now.
How old were you when you made your first million and have you had any significant behavior shifts since then?
It was pretty recently, so it’s a very vivid memory. I was sitting in my boss’s office and he was sharing my bonus number with me.
He inquired if I had a financial advisor, and I shook my head to indicate that I did not have one. He recommended that I get one.
I quietly nodded, but in my mind, I was calculating that with that bonus, my net worth went from a few thousand less than a million to a bit over one million. That moment of going from six digits to seven is one that sticks with me.
I haven’t had any significant behavior shifts since reaching that number, but I have come to the realization that I am now free to buy anything I want at Costco and have gone on a bit of a Costco clothes binge. If I like it, I tend to buy it.
Though, in more recent days, I have pared that back since a girl can only have so much athleisure, lol. I have been told recently that I have too many clothes (lol, which is very true — see below), so I try to exercise a bit more restraint when I roam through the aisles of clothes at Costco.
Earlier this year, we went on a month-long vacation, and in preparation for that, I was organizing my closets. I realized just how much stuff I had accumulated.
They were all great Costco deals ($2 for shorts, $4 for a shirt, $6 for a dress), but as much as I love the thrill of going hunting for clearance sales, I really don’t need that many clothes. These days, I still look for clearance sales when we go to Costco, but organizing my closets over the past few months made me realize how I don’t need any more clothes and am simply adding to clutter.
What money mistakes have you made along the way that others can learn from?
I wish I had been more thoughtful when choosing my initial practice area at work. I ended up in an area simply because there was a lot of work going on, and I needed billable hours to make my bonus.
In hindsight, I wish I had taken some time to know myself, what my motivations are, and what my stressors are. I am in an adjacent practice area now, which is much better suited to my values, but the in-house jobs in this field are not as prevalent.
What advice do you have for ESI Money readers on how to become wealthy?
I cannot say that I am in a position to provide advice to this esteemed group of folks as I have learned so much from you all for the past several years — and continue to do so each day that I read John’s website.
The only piece of advice that I have is to continue reading the articles and interviews on this website, and hope that John continues posting for many more years!
FUTURE
What are your plans for the future regarding lifestyle?
This is a good question. I am not really sure what the future looks like.
I try to take it day by day.
What are your retirement plans?
Retirement feels like a couple of decades away, so I am still not sure what that looks like.
I love to slow travel so I can see myself trying that out at some point.
Are there any issues in retirement that concern you? If so, how are you planning to address them?
Like many other interviewees, my primary concern is healthcare.
I have vaguely considered moving abroad as I approach my 50’s and 60’s for healthcare but this is something I want to learn more about.
MISCELLANEOUS
How did you learn about finances and at what age did it “click”?
My first exposure to money was the summer I joined the BigLaw firm. That summer, I saw how the other half lived, and it was eye-opening.
The partners at the firm had fabulous penthouse apartments, had second homes in all the right locations, and seemed to have the perfect lives in those rare moments when they were not at work, thinking about work, or stressing about work.
While the lifestyles of the rich and famous definitely attracted my summer associate self, I knew that I did not have the brainpower, endurance, nor the mentality to be a player in the partnership track.
Who inspired you to excel in life? Who are your heroes?
I have two men in my life that I consider my role models and heroes for different reasons.
First and foremost, my father. As an immigrant, he started his career in Eastern Europe, climbed the ranks, and then when presented with an opportunity to move to the United States, he started at the bottom of the totem pole.
He is the hardest worker that I know and routinely works 10 hours a day during the week, and puts in at least 5 hours a day each day on the weekend. His work ethic is unmatched, and I will never be able to replicate it.
I asked him recently how he does it, and he exclaimed “I love my job!”
He is also frugal with himself as he clips coupons and checks out sales before he buys. On the other hand, he spends lavishly on others.
(A couple of months ago, he was checking out a couple of watches that ran in the 5 figures for family friends who were celebrating their 25th anniversary.) While I will never be able to emulate his work ethic, his devotion to others (both quantitatively and qualitatively) is something I would love to instill in myself.
Second is my partner who has taught me the importance of balance. Yes, it’s important to save and invest, but it’s equally important to enjoy the present and have anticipation for the future.
As mentioned above, a few months ago, we went on a month-long vacation abroad, and spending for a vacation like this is not something that comes naturally to me. But he has taught me the value of planning for experiences outside of an Excel spreadsheet, anticipating those experiences, and having memories of those experiences.
Moderation in all things, if you will, including moderation.
Do you have any favorite money books you like/recommend? If so, can you share with us your top three and why you like them?
I love reading books on money, personal finance, and psychology. All of the books I would typically recommend have been previously suggested by prior ESI interviews, so I will offer three suggestions that I have not seen in the other interviews.
These three suggestions are short stories and not books per se, yet their takeaways and underlying themes of contentment, satisfaction with enough, and managing ego have made an impression on me.
“The Necklace” by Guy de Maupassant: Comparison is the thief of joy.
“How Much Land Does a Man Need?” by Leo Tolstoy: The answer to the question posed in the title of this article is one that speaks volumes to me.
“The Standard of Living” by Dorothy Parker: Contentment comes from within.
Do you give to charity? Why or why not? If you do, what percent of time/money do you give?
I volunteer off and on for various organizations, but it is more off than on.
I enjoyed volunteering at the local food pantry and want to look for opportunities relating to working in a soup kitchen.
Do you plan to leave an inheritance for your heirs (how do you plan to distribute your wealth at your death)? What are your reasons behind this plan?
I haven’t given this much (if any) thought.
As a very initial step, I have begun thinking of organizations that I might want to contribute to but I haven’t gotten much further than that.
Your father must be incredibly proud of you. Whenever I read about a young
adult like you — who clearly both works hard and has a great outlook on the
world — I realize that the world will be in good hands.
Congratulations!
Your kind words made my morning — thank you!
She will easily get to 10mm by retirement
Great interview, thank you for sharing. I too read Free Money Finance back in the day.
Congratulations on your success. You did your part to make it happen. I love your acknowledgement of your luck but don’t dismiss your contribution.
I too dislike spending on alcohol and I love that turning down expensive dinners out led to you finding thrift store shopping.
I have a love/hate relationship with Costco. They sell so much stuff and that is bad for the environment but I do like the prices on food and discounted gift cards.
I feel like Costco is sometimes my second home, lol. I go way too often, and love finding their deals!
This is the finest millionaire interview I have read on ESI…I was also a FMF reader.
The ESI IQ on this post is off the charts and I appreciate it being shared.
Quite inspirational.
That is so nice of you to say, thank you!
Congrats on hitting the mark before your 30s! That’s quite an accomplishment and you’ve got a long life ahead to continue to learn about yourself, practice moderation, and live a fulfilling life like you already have.
It’s too bad you missed out on Friday night fun because of the bill. Maybe a potluck or game night at someone’s home would have been better? I know how it feels to want to go but not be saddled with that bill. Social connection is so important and we’ve got to find ways to remove the financial barrier, time spent does not have to mean money spent.
Grateful you mentioned FMF. I learned a lot and enjoyed the dialog there (and then at ESI). I specifically remember Old Limey as a great contributor to the conversation.
Thanks for sharing your story. New Jersey rent is crazy. It is getting worse.
If you don’t mind, can you share the midtown thrift store? I was always skeptical about thrift store but since you vetted this one, I would like to check it out. 🙂
What a great interview! Quite impressive to have accumulated so much in savings at such a young age. Your dad must be proud