We have an extra post this week. I am in the process of moving to four posts each week but this week there will be five.
The reason is that I received an email Monday night with a sense of urgency to it. So I’m writing this on Tuesday (yesterday by the time it posts) and it’s going live on Wednesday.
As you’ll see below, the reader has an interview on Friday, so we have two days to give him some advice.
So let’s get to it. Here’s the email I received (edited a bit for clarity and to protect his identity):
I am having an on-site interview for a new job I am considering and I am looking for some guidance.
I am currently working at a healthcare company and have been for 6 years. I am planning to change jobs to a new company because I need a change and a new challenge, not to mention a hike in my salary. My wife does not work and we don’t have kids yet (but planning next year). Let’s assume my salary is $100k.
I have been looking for a new job for months now and I got a call from another healthcare company based in Minnesota. I am scheduled for an on-site interview with them this Friday.
Here are my queries:
1. During the HR phone interview, the HR rep revealed the salary range for this job position, which is 15-35% more than my current salary. But based on cost-of-living, Minnesota is 10% more expensive than my current city. If I do get this job, is this considered a good hike?
2. If yes, how can I negotiate the salary on the higher end?
3. Will this be a good decision if I move to an expensive city? The rent will be higher. And currently, I don’t own a house.
4. I know there are many sites and blogs about interviewing tips. Are there any tips or questions that I need to be prepared for a mid-level experience job?
I wanted to know your thoughts.
Here’s my take on the above:
1. If you can get a 35% pay increase but pay 10% more in costs, I’d say that’s a good deal. If you get a 10% pay increase but pay 10% more in costs, I’d say that’s not a good deal. So there’s a middle area where it’s ok that you want to set as a minimum. Personally, I’d set a 10% net gain as my minimum. That means if you’ll have 10% more in costs, then you want at least a 20% bump in pay. I personally wouldn’t move for less. Obviously the more you can go above this, the better.
2. I’d start by having an awesome interview and being exactly what they want. If you are, they are more likely to pay more. I’d also have them make the offer before you volunteered what you’d like. If they push and force you to give a number I would quote to them the range and then say something like, “I’d like to be at the upper end of that range and based on the skills and abilities I’ve shared with you today I hope you can see why that would be merited.” Those aren’t the exact words, but you get the idea.
Then as things get down to business and they off something, if it’s low (below 20%), I would begin by telling them about the cost of living difference. Employers understand this and are open to covering it. Then you need to make a case for why you deserve more. If you’ve had a stellar interview, this should be no problem. If you’ve been less than impressive, it will be hard.
Ultimately if they offer you too little you’ll need to decide if you’re willing to pass on the job or not and only you can make that decision.
3. If you follow the guidelines I’ve laid out above, it will be a good deal even if the city is more expensive. FYI, I guess that while the move to Minnesota would be “more expensive”, living anywhere in Minnesota is still going to be a relatively low cost of living versus most of the U.S.
4. I actually have a post coming up about preparing for an interview but that won’t be ready for a few weeks.
It’s something you should have been working on for weeks now if you’re really serious about getting a new job. But we don’t have weeks, so we’ll do the best we can.
Here are some articles I recommend you reading and applying:
- How to Answer Tricky Interview Questions, Part 1
- How to Ace an Interview
- How to Answer Six Common Interview Questions
That’s my two cents. Now it’s time for ESI Money readers to chime in.
What advice do you have for him? Did I miss anything or get something wrong? I know there are some very experienced people reading this who could help him out and I’m sure any suggestions would be appreciated.
Jason says
1) Be positive, and don’t speak negatively about your current employment situation. It is ok to be looking for a new challenge, or applying your skills to new topics, but speaking negatively about your current position will not be looked upon favorably.
2)Don’t dwell on compensation in the interview.The HR rep will ask you your current comp (which in my 20 year career in pharma I’ve always answered that question honestly). When they ask what you want to make, I usually give a response like “I’d like an increase, but I am not worried about that now, as if I’m a good fit for the position, I’m sure you will make a fair offer” or something like that. There will be time to negotiate if you get an offer, but you need to get there first!
3) don’t hesitate when they ask if you are willing to relocate. Do a little research on the area, and say something like “Absolutely! Ive hear downtown Minneapolis has a really thriving restaurant scene, and my wife and I enjoy eating out”…
4) give specifics about ways you’ve succeeded in your current role. Instead of “I improved productivity” you could say “I developed an automated process for managing reimbursement. The new process reduced the time it takes to pay claims by 20% and increased our groups revenue by 30% in less than 6 months”…
Relax and try to enjoy meeting new people. Ask questions of the interviewers to get a sense if they are happy, and what they like about the company.
Mike H says
I agree with Jason. Be positive and focus on your being a fit for the job, and make sure that any reservations or concerns are fully addressed. State that you are more interested in the job, career and culture fit as a start. Once you know that you are their top choice you can begin to do the negotiation.
Start by fact finding in a non-threatening way on the benefits the company offers (healthcare, 401k match, bonuses, stock grants, etc) and compare this to what you are currently being offered. If there is anything advantageous in your current company that they don’t have be sure to include this. If it’s the other way around you don’t need to necessarily draw attention to this.
Consider what your year end bonus would be this year (based on history or some rationale) plus a year end raise that you would received and estimate your full planned comp for 2017, this gives you the opportunity to round up a bit because while they can ask to see the current pay stubs to verify basic salary other items won’t be so tangible. See if you can mention the cost of living increase and be ready to justify the tangible reasons (housing, higher state taxes, etc). Also consider this as a time to negotiate increased vacation time (again check the first year company policy and if you are currently getting more time off you can usually negotiate this upwards).
Don’t negotiate all the details until they are sure they want you. Remember to keep getting closer to closing the deal as you negotiate these details- like you are just excited to make a contribution as soon as possible but just need to iron out the minor details like comp and benefits.
See if you can negotiate relocation assistance (help with covering the cost of the home sale and purchase plus the move or just as a lump sum) plus see if you can get a signing bonus thrown in at the last minute as an afterthought once the deal is closed. It all depends on how much power the counter party negotiator has and how badly they want you. Remember asking for more nicely and pulling back by offering other concessions makes them feel happier too. Do not negotiate so hard that they will feel unhappy having hired you!
Let me know if you would like some more tips. I love this sort of stuff and am speaking from personal experience, if you play the game well you will likely get some improvements in the offer they give you.
Bruce says
When talking about compensation, make sure to include the benefits besides salary. Make sure you understand the differences, because if your current company has great benefits and the new company has so-so benefits, you may require more of a salary to bridge the differences to get a boost in your earnings that you desire. The opposite is also true.
To also complicate the decision process, how do the company cultures differ? If you have strong opinions and desires on this front and the new company fits better into what you want in a company, then you might be willing to take less in compensation. If you don’t have firm thoughts on the fuzzy side of companies, then focus on the dollar side of the equation.
Good luck!
JayCeezy says
You will nail this interview. You will get an offer. If the bottom of the range is 15% higher than your current salary, you must take this offer.
You must switch companies, thinking 5-10 years down the road, because you want to show your next employer (after this MN company) that you are able to attract new positions that pay more money. That next employer won’t care about the c-o-l in MN, only the salary bump. This is the best time in your life to move, because your wife doesn’t have a job to give up and you don’t yet have children that will be settled into school.
One question you should avoid is “does your company press charges?” You will nail this interview.
Jon @ Be Net Worthy says
Reading through the post and comments, this is all good advice. The only other piece I would add is this. Make sure you are planning two moves out. What do I mean by this? Make sure that you know where this job will take you in your career and the role or type of role that it will be setting you up for.
Often the prospect of getting a new role with a fresh company is so appealing that people forget to think a few moves ahead. Ask yourself the question, is it moving you towards your ultimate end goal in your career?
I have seen people take roles in the past that ultimately ended up being dead end for them. They had not considered what role they would be getting setup for and in some cases it turns out to be no role, at least not one they want.
Best of luck – interviewing is always an exciting time!
ESI says
The comments above are awesome.
If any ESI Money readers are skipping the comments on posts, they are missing a lot of great stuff.
Thanks to those of you who make this site better by leaving amazing comments!
Hank says
Man, now I want to know how this turns out after Friday. I hope there will be a brief update or footnote to this post. Great answers!
Interviewee says
Thanks for all the replies! Very helpful!
@ESI – that’s how I had in my mind as well, about the hike margin. I am currently focusing on nailing this interview. Overdress and practice – I will go home and dust off my suit. Thanks for the resources.
@Jason – thanks. Nothing negative about the current company. It’s just I am tired to receive around 2%-2.5% hike each year which is just above inflation. I understand that’s how it is at most places but I feel I could do better, specially as the only bread winner. Thanks for tips about quantifying the tasks and presenting in a measurable way.
@Mike – I looked up the benefits. Current company matches 50% of first 8% in 401k, while the new company is 6%. But it seems like the new company has cash bonus, which current company doesn’t offer. The medical and dental benefits are more or less the same – nothing lucrative. Re: relocation – I am currently renting, so need to break the 1-year lease if I have to move there. Not sure if they would cover that. Again – I can worry about it once they make an offer.
Would definitely reach out maybe next week when I hear back from them.
@Bruce – Yes, these are good points. This would be good if my interview goes really well and I can then focus on these. I am assuming my interview will be more technical.
@JayCeezy – I agree and am in the path of changing jobs in the next 5-10 years. Again, not out of compulsion but to be progressive. This is one of the reasons why I am still renting for 6 years. I understand if others have a different metric.
@Jon – I think you got it. I have been in my current role for last 5 years and I don’t see progression, inspite of garnering praises etc from the managers. Feels odd. The HM for new company did say that this position is for long term. Will find out more details during the interview.
@Hank – Yes, I will update after Friday on how it went. Right now, I will just focus on my interview prep and will try not to be overwhelmed and cocky as if I already nailed the interview 馃檪
First of all, I was surprised that the HR revealed the salary range in the first call. I thought that was unusual – but the range she gave matches well in Glassdoor. She also inquired about relocation and indirectly asking if I can give up relocation assistance because their budget won’t allow it. I told her to first make an offer and I will be glad to discuss further. I don’t foresee anybody asking me these questions again during in-person interview though, but will be prepared for it.
My second call was with the hiring manager. I was asked only 2 technical questions and that’s about it. I was stumped. In response to his ‘do you have any questions’ – I asked if this is an open position for a new project. He said he’s not at a liberty to answer that question – which I thought was rather blunt. But he did give some generic answer. Towards the end of the call our interview was pleasant though, doing small talk. Later on, I was contacted about in-person interview.
I am being interviewed by top executives and I don’t have enough experience with them. Hence I am more interested in finding out what questions they may ask.
MoneySheep says
If it was me, I would evalute the job in Minnesota based on my future prospects there first, then the salary 2nd, 3rd or 4th. The work that I do has to enlighten me, contrary to many people who work to get a paycheck but hate their job. The corollary is that I am willing to take a pay cut to get a better future prospects. (I would take a job with no pay if I could work next to Mark Z and converse with him from time to time about the tech industry develpment).
Jeremy says
1. As several mentioned above, salary is only one of several items that you should evaluate when considering a move. Job requirements, boss, opportunity for advancement, benefits, work life balance, etc. are all very important variables to factor into your, “is it worth it?” calculation.
2. How do you negotiate a higher salary? Nailing the interview should be your first step! Do your homework on the organization and job. Why do you want to work for them? Study up on their Mission, Vision, and Values. Give some meaningful answers that reference their M,V,&V. Referencing their M,V,&V in your answers says that you have done your homework and are not just interested in a wage increase. Show some enthusiasm and come in with a positive attitude! As a long term health care executive, I am much more interested in hiring some younger less experienced (but enthusiastic) employees. I can teach them the technical skills they may be lacking. I have not had much luck teaching enthusiasm and attitude.
3. How much higher will rent be? How much do you expect your expenses to increase? You need to keep that in mind when negotiating a salary. I would have a figure in mind before the salary negotiations begin.
4. Over dress for the job. Memorize the names of the people you will be interviewing with (if you have them) and use their name when answering questions. Tell them why they should hire you by highlighting the improvements achieved during your leadership. Be prepared for behavioral based questions. i.e. Tell me about a time when you were working with a difficult co-worker/employee. How did you handle the situation and what was the outcome? Use humor (if its comfortable for you).
Good luck!!
SBDad @ Small Budget Blog says
ESI, you mentioned preparing for weeks. Maybe I misunderstood, but that seems like a lot … ?
Here’s a question that might be slightly off topic, but … is it possible to over prepare? I’ve interviewed folks who walk in dressed to the 9’s and they’re so formal and practiced that I don’t get a feel for who they are and what they’re like to work with. Often times those folks don’t seem very relaxed. Maybe because they practiced so much?
Obviously being dressed well and having good answers is important, but is there a limit?
Sorry if that’s off topic.
ESI says
Here’s my take:
When I’m interviewing for jobs (which is usually a series of jobs, not just one), I usually start preparing weeks in advance. Knowing what questions will be asked, knowing what my answers are, rehearsing them, etc.
I do not believe it’s possible to over prepare. I have interviewed hundreds of people and have never seen anyone over prepared. I have seen people nervous and formal, but I think that’s due to a lack of preparation (or maybe they are just nervous — but that’s also partially a function of not preparing.)
There’s a difference between being formal and practiced. Formal is off-putting and generally the result of someone’s personality style. Also being nervous contributes to being both formal and unrelaxed.
Practice actually makes you more relaxed and confident if you do it right. You know what the questions are going to be and you know what your answers are. You’ve rehearsed them over and over until they come out smooth and full of the most compelling accomplishments possible that will wow the interviewer. As such, you can relax (and thus avoid the formal/nervous issue).
I have a post on this exact topic coming up in a few weeks where I’ll provide more details, but I will say here that I’ve practiced questions for interviews for a couple decades (whenever I’ve switched jobs) and I’ve ALWAYS received a job offer. If you do it right, it’s almost impossible not to get the job.
And it’s not just me. SPOILER ALERT: I recently applied the same system in training my son and he got the first job he interviewed for, primarily because we developed the questions, wrote out great answers, and had him practice them until he was smooth as silk in responding.
Stay tuned.
JayCeezy says
+1 on ‘overprepare’
It is like ‘overstudying’ or ‘overtipping’; it isn’t possible. I have heard people claim that for themselves, as an excuse (nobody ever wonders if somebody else ‘overprepared’). A prepared answer shows that the reasoning, example, and explanation have been considered beforehand; nothing worse than listening to somebody try to figure out an answer on-the-fly, and present it as a complete and final reply.
Mike H says
Besides preparing for the specific job description, read everything you can about the company, their products, their competitors. Google all the people you will be interviewing with and see if you can read any interview articles or videos about them. Connect your skills to the role and vision and mission or the company and try and connect with each executive you talk with- realize their time is valuable. At the end of the interview, close the deal. Ask for the job or indicate your commitment to start and excitement to help the business grow. Ask if there any objections or concerns that haven’t been touched upon and answer them to the interviewers satisfaction.
Politely ask for a business card and then follow up with an individualized email to the interviewer covering the basic points discussed in the interview, the fact that you understand and acknowledge them and tie this into your skills and desires and thank them for their time and indicate again your strong interest in joining their team. Do this with 12 hours of the interview, a good time is 5am the next morning before work (shows indirectly your work ethic too!)
This is called closing the deal and it’s what you need to do to get a strong impression to increase your negotiation power. All executives talk about the summary later so this is how you wow them. And once you are in that category you will find that there is room to stretch their budget as best they can as companies are willing to pay top dollar for talent.
Of course you will need to deliver on this promise once you join but that is a discussion for another post and set of comments.
Mike
ESI says
Great thoughts, as usual.
I’ll second the follow up. Most don’t do it which means those who do (and do it well as Mike details above) stand out.
Katherine says
How did it go? 馃檪
ESI says
I emailed him and here’s what he said:
Yes, I believe it went well. I did my best and there was no fumbling while answering during the interview.
Highlights:
1. There were 5 interviewers (2 Directors, 1 hiring manager, 1 manager and 1 senior engineer). The questions were in the format of STAR approach. I gave them situation and followed up with tasks, actions and results order. They took notes.
2. The first interviewer made me feel at ease and told me that they are not just interviewing me, but I am interviewing them about their company in a way – and figure out if it’s a good fit. It felt that we were discussing about the issues we see within the team.
3. Other interviewers were following the script for STAR method and it was primarily how I handled conflict, my strengths/weaknesses, about why I am interested and what I can bring to the table.
4. Hiring manager took me out for lunch and interviewed me. He was assuring me that I can look for other opportunities within the company, should I feel locked into a project for a long time. Also, under his team, he said he often tried to promote good employers.
5. Overall, it appeared that I had good vibes. I was told that I would hear back from HM in the upcoming week.
Key points:
1.I got an impression that the group where this job is posted is NOT doing very well in revenue. Hiring manager told me that they have some FDA compliance issues and his team is undergoing some re-org.and hence hiring new folks. He admitted that it’s embarrassing but he’s confident to resolve issues with team work.
2. They are suffering from some very stiff competition leading to huge losses. I see that the revenue for this particular group has declined in the last 3 quarters. Also, it is expected the revenue will remain negative or flat in the next few quarters. All this info is captured in their 2016 FY earnings quarterly report. This info did scare me a bit.
3. The Director told me that currently, the team does not have a good hold on big picture and it’s a “mess”. This company does have a global reach in emerging markets (so they claim). However, I am not sure if there’s enough cross-functional division interaction. And they don’t interact with the customer/clients that often. My current company does well in that department.
4. It looks like they lack good documentation practice and they need help. Hiring manager asked me if I have any certifications. I don’t, but I backed up to say I had several trainings to hone my program management skills. Not sure if that helped.
Sinking ship? – Looks like I need to make a decision beyond salary hike. I can either bail out since this group/wing does not have a good revenue history OR, I can take this as a challenge and work hard towards progress and contribute. But it may take few years to see the results.
Although I will know more in a day or two about their decision, I welcome your thoughts and comments. Please let me know what do you think.
Mike H says
Interesting feedback. If the company is struggling there will be repercussions if it does not turn around. Will you be in a position to help them make the turnaround and do you have confidence in the team mates and leadership? If not, it may not be a wise move to make.
-Mike
ESI says
Here were my thoughts:
If you think it’s a risky move, I’d ask for 1) a salary at the higher level of the range and 2) an employment contract (if you need more info on this I can provide it).
After that, you’ll then need to decide if the risk is worth it.
I’ve had good and bad experiences going to a company that was in a tough situation. I’ve helped turn it around (and been rewarded) and seen it crash and burn (and had to move to a new job rather quickly.)
Interviewee says
Thank you for the feedback. I am assuming the risk is always there when moving to any job. The other businesses within the company are doing good except for the business I applied for. I will wait to hear back and see what they have to offer as ESI suggested.
Interviewee says
Update from today is that – I received an email from the recruiter asking me to chat with her. I am guessing the hiring manager gives her a range and won’t be involved in these negotiations.
Here’s what I am thinking:
– My guess (if positive) is that she will quote the salary range similar to glassdoor (that’s what she revealed the first time). I will listen.
– Jot down what all she has to say about the offer. Note down the details about the base salary, vacation, relocation and other benefits and will contact her in a few days after I think about it. Fair?
– I am reading a lot about the signing bonus. Is it something that one would recommend?
– Anything else I need to be aware of?
Thanks!
ESI says
Yes, asking for a few days to consider the offer is fair. Reinforce that you’re excited about the company and the opportunity but that you’d just like a couple days to consider it.
If there is a signing bonus I would certainly ask for it.
Mike H says
If it is through the recruiter and they mention a range then that’s a green light to negotiate and that includes the signing bonus too. I’d negotiate on the base offer first and then the signing bonus last.
Have you gotten comfortable with the potential risks of the industry / company / role? If you need to jump again in case things go South then this could be a great way to continue to build your base pay. You just want to hang around long enough to make some strong contributions and be able to share your experiences and achievements when looking for the role after this one.
-Mike
Interviewee says
Thanks. At any time, do I need to reveal my current salary to negotiate? I am usually comfortable providing a range and specifying a high-end of that range.
ESI says
They will probably ask your salary, but I’d avoid it if possible, especially since the upper range for this job is so much higher than what you make now.
If they do ask, I’d begin by stating that any move you’d make would need to be a significant increase in pay given you like your current job (even if you don’t, say it), have to move your family, etc. Also stress the cost of living difference in the two cities.
Then if you have to reveal it, do so. And be honest as they may ask for a pay stub either now or when you accept the job.
But I’d also say what pay you’re looking for and that any offer needs to be in that range for you to consider it.
Of course, always conduct yourself in a polite and professional manner throughout these conversations.
Interviewee says
Thank you. I just had a call from the recruiter. I told her how excited I was and had good vibes with the team and will be a good fit for the role. She responded the same way and gave team’s positive feedback.
About salary – The range she quoted is 20-30% price range than I make. And she asked my expectations without beating around the bush. I pushed it 30-35%. She said that may not be possible, but she needs to talk to the manager.
Question about the title – I applied for and was interviewed for senior-level position. What intrigued me is that they are asking if I really fall into low or mid-senior position instead. And they are thinking if I would be a good fit in mid-senior or senior level. They have this doubt because there will be a learning curve for me and there are others in the team with same title for many years and how does that justify to offer me the same band. I said that’s fair enough and pointed that salary alone is not the deciding factor, but I do bring in a lot to the table and especially with group’s declining profits, there’s a lot of work that needs to be done. I also said I will have to see what other benefits the company has to offer.
Other benefits – we didn’t get to it at all (401k, medical etc.).
Relocation – She said she has to incorporate relocation expenses build into the range she suggested above. And pointed out, they are not as generous as my current company.
Cost of living – when I said cost of living expenses are 10% more, she dismissed it outright and said ‘that’s not a fair argument’. She’s not buying this as a factor as according to her the expenses are very similar. I didn’t bother to defend and said I will be glad if she’s right and end it there.
Signing bonus – didn’t talk about it at all.
My impression – Her main point was – if you have so much good things going on at my current company, why am I still interested in this small company? I have to say I didn’t have enough leverage of convincing or prove that I am a good fit right away (IMO). She said she’ll get back to me, but it might take a while as they are lined up to interview few more candidates. So it may take few weeks. AFAIK, I was polite throughout.
Questions:
1. Did I push it too far? Did I do anything wrong?
2. If yes, what rookie mistakes did I make?
3. How else could I have handle this call?
Appreciate your inputs. Thanks.
ESI says
Lots to comment on here.
I think that was a good answer on the title issue. Ultimately it depends on what they offer you salary-wise and what title you feel you can live with.
You will need to know all the benefits before you can make a reasonable decision.
Relocation should be separate from the salary. No one puts them together and then says the job is worth $X. She’s trying to low ball you and get you hired at the least possible price. That’s why she’s also discounting the cost of living. I’ve had a few try that with me too and I say something like, “Well, you may discount it, but it’s a factor for me and the numbers are well-documented. I’ll be considering it as I review any offer, so you need to be aware of that.”
You’re interested because you want to learn/grow/advance. You love your current company and will only leave if the overall opportunity is much better. This is where preparation for a variety of questions over a few weeks would have been very helpful (like I pointed out at the beginning) and you would have had a good answer for this. It’s something to learn from next time you’re interviewing.
I think you did ok. All you can do now is wait. Be sure to send thank you notes to all those who interviewed you, thanking them for their time and saying how interested you are in the company/position.
And start thinking about what it’s really going to take for you to move — what salary, what bonus, etc.
Mike H says
You did well enough. Agree with ESI’s comments.
Generally you want to make the most you can and get into the most senior title you can, provided that your are able to deliver the goods once you join. Senior people get paid more and those who earn more are often tasked to get the hard problems done. So best to find out what you can do and do both if you are able to do it early in your career. Your mid-career self will thank you for this.
Agree that you should say you are happy where you are (no need to move) but are excited at making a difference in the new company, and that you got good vibes from the interview.
I wonder if the recruiter is on retainer or contingency? If the latter then the may more money if you are paid more. The former, not so much. I normally try to get that information from the recruiter early without tipping off the reason for asking.
Good luck- keep us posted on how it goes and glad to help!
-Mike
JayCeezy says
Well done. Quick thoughts…
Just as you compare the offer to your current position, the company is comparing you to other candidates. The recruiter has bought a few weeks to get another candidate at a lower price and title. If they were red-hot on you, you would have already received the ‘offer to send an offer letter’.
Sounds like the recruiter is not in-house, so on retainer. Their job is not only to get someone who is a good fit for as little as possible, but to get follow-on recruiting assignments from the company. The way to do is to grind you down on title and money and relocation.
That ‘title’ tactic is one I ran into towards the end of my work life. You are not the only candidate. The recruiter is presenting several candidates, and the company will make the ‘Goldilocks’ choice. So many times, I have been a stalking-horse for a senior level position, only to be offered a lower title (which equals lower salary band). The company has to show metrics with a distribution of skills, and the easiest way to show that is by title/salary band.
Take this job, if it is offered. The recruiter is correct on cost-of-living, and signing bonuses are not a thing except for very high-profile jobs. No matter how well you did on this interview, it is a buyer’s market. This offer is not taking place in a vacuum, compare it to your current job and another possible 2,3,4,5 years there.
If you decline this offer, you will stay at your current positon, with 2-3% raises, and no movement. You will have to create a new opportunity for yourself from scratch. You already know you are going to have to do that anyway, so might as well do it from the new position paying more with higher title. Also, if you do get another call from the recruiter and are asked if you are ‘flexible’, expect to reopen salary and title negotiations.
Let us know, keeping good thoughts for you!
Interviewee says
Thanks all for you your kind words. Appreciate it!
I now learned a new thing about recruiters – retainer vs. consignment. I still don’t know who I was talking to, because I applied directly from company’s website. But her title was Sr. Talent Acquisition specialist.
The way I see it, I have 50-50 chances. You were right about slow movement if I stay at my current job. But I have to keep trying if they don’t offer me in the next few weeks.
I sent thank you notes to couple of the interviewers. I don’t have contacts of others. Would it be wise to connect with them via LinkedIn? Send a message maybe?
I am also curious about cost of living issue – it is indeed higher than where I am. I am not sure how 200-300 bucks more per month is still ‘same’ expense.
Anyway, I will wait patiently and continue to look for other avenues…
Mike H says
It’s retainer vs contingency on the recruiters. In house recruiters are basically operating the same way as a retained recruiter.
Keep connection with them. If you are already having a dialogue over email, no need to switch to linked in.
And I question Linked in as a way to get jobs. As a senior level exec, I am bombarded with linked in connections and messages of people looking for work. Most get deleted after just scanning the initial name, background and first sentence.
-Mike
ESI says
I would send thank you notes however you can — even if it’s through LinkedIn.
JayCeezy says
None of it matters now, no worries. You should now deal only with the recruiter. There is an ethical conflict for connecting (LinkedIn or otherwise) with anyone you spoke with from the company. If they want to connect with you, that is fine, but I wouldn’t expect it.
Cost-of-living is something you, as a candidate, will have to absorb. The recruiter isn’t getting you compensation for the different c.o.l.
If you are truly sweating $200-300/month, you need to rethink what your endgame here is. That kind of nickel-and-diming is not a good look, and tells the company that the opportunity is not the most important thing for you (they need to think it is).
Keep looking, don’t stop. That “it may take awhile” is a message to you. Hear it. Touch base with the recruiter in 10 working days to express continued interest, and ask if it would be alright to check again in another 10 working days. The response to that question will tell you what you need to know. Life is long, and your relationship NOW is with the recruiter.
Interviewee says
@JayCeezy – Agreed. However, I had premeditated notion of this division being not doing well. It’s good that I am learning here. I am gathering that there is a hiring freeze at the other companies that I applied so far.
Meanwhile, I went to library today and took a book titled ‘Negotiating your salary: how to make $1000 a minute’. Anybody read this book in the past?
ESI says
I have not read it, but it sounds good.
JayCeezy says
@Interviewee, good that you are learning. $100K/yr is a great salary, especially for just six years in the work force. Take a really honest look at yourself, your skills, and your value, and answer these questions (to yourself, not asking for a reply)…
Look at those a little more senior than you, where you are. Would they be a better hire than you, for the same salary? If someone with your qualifications, but female or a protected minority, were to apply, would they be more likely to be hired?
Companies want to hire a happy employee who will be grateful for the opportunity. Compare yourself and your negotiating to someone who will happily accept $15K less than you. Are you still in the running? Worth $15K more? Worth taking a chance on, if you have asked for $15K more but don’t get it? Which candidate will the recruiter prefer sending on to the hiring managers? If other companies have a hiring freeze, do you think there are others in the talent-pool with your comparable skills seeking a promotion/raise that are also looking for a job like that and will happily take less money/title? Maybe even out of work at the moment?
The managers have already decided to keep looking, and the reason a recruiter is used at all, in this time of surplus labor, is to keep a layer between candidates and themselves. They don’t want to have to ignore an e-mail or phone call. So deal strictly with the recruiter.
One last thought…don’t have a baby next year if you are sweating a few thousand dollars a year in salary or cost-of-living. Having a baby is incredibly stressful, as you are well aware. Wait another year, or until your wife is working, so you will both have the time, money, and interest to raise your baby. All the best!
Interviewee says
@JayCeezy – interesting take and food for thought for me. I have asked these questions to myself sometime back. 100k is a round figure I used here, but I am 35, not 24 anymore. When I completed my PhD few years ago, my peers moved to managerial positions. Right now, they are in top executive positions. This is just to check where I am compared to my peers and I am glad about my decision to pursue further studies.
Back when I first joined the company, I did not negotiate anything. I was just glad that I got a job. After few months, other new colleagues who joined with me after finishing PhD said they negotiated it and got at least 5k bump. It didn’t bother me. Recently, I recommended a person I know who just finished his school and joined our company. He accidentally revealed his base salary which is 4% more than I make with good relocation package. I didn’t believe initially but my other colleagues confirmed the same. This made me think if I am correctly compensated for the work and responsibility I took all these years.
It was interesting to see how employees get a raise each year. Not that I keep tab on who gets them, but I heard a colleague of mine who got promoted, felt disgruntled after he learned no big bump in his payscale. His take was – we already work in a very hectic environment and it’s fair to recognize the same. Again, there are no benefits, cash bonus or profit sharing.
I love my work in my current job. It is challenging already, but I can handle it. The issue is it’s same quality of life and I may get too comfortable. We are thinking of family and I am not getting any younger. Therefore, looking for jobs where I can progress further.
Going back to connecting with recruiter, don’t the managers have a say who they want? Otherwise, it appears that recruiters get to decide who they want to hire and not managers. Having said that, I get your point of view.
Interviewee says
Quick update. I contacted the recruiter and she said they are interviewing couple more candidates and will let me know in the next 10 days.
JayCeezy says
Thanks for the update. This is a tough time of year. Assuming she means 10 business days, that would put you halfway into October. Two weeks notice (at least) for your current employer puts you into November. Then, the holidays. New Calendar Year. Budgets renew.
The client has many reasons to delay an answer, and the hire. The client may be working with more than one recruiter for this position. Keep looking, and keeping good thoughts for you.
Interviewee says
Thank you. Yes, I am not in a hurry but I will keep looking elsewhere, if this does not work out. It can get trickier as I do have planned vacation in December (I haven’t taken vacation this year). Ideally, it would be better to settle down with an offer by next month and go for vacation in December if permitted. Else, come back after vacation and move to the new company with the offer in hand. I will have to see how it will work out.
Meanwhile, I was reading a book on salary negotiations and am learning that I should NOT have picked up a salary range when I am forced to choose. I should have just said – ‘make me an offer first’ or ‘are you making an offer?’ – and then make an informed decision with all the info (not just salary), as ESI mentioned earlier. I will see what the recruiter comes back with….
Interviewee says
Just a quick update – recruiter said no further updates for me yet. They are making an offer to an internal candidate (not finalized yet), but there’s one more open position in their division. Asked me to check back later.
ESI says
This is the way it goes sometimes — hurry up and wait!!!
JayCeezy says
Cool. Life is long. Recruiter, company, and all the people you interviewed with may be part of your future encounters. Keeping good thoughts, nice that the recruiter invited you to keep in touch.
HM says
I followed you over from the old blog, which I was just getting into when you switched. Love the site!
So, I go back and forth on how much home I can afford and wouldn’t mind some thoughts. One thing I’ve always wondered is at what income do either of these benchmarks become less relevant?
I’m 38 and married, living in Silicon Valley. I’m a manager at one of the large tech companies and my wife is an accountant. We’re blessed to have great jobs and combined we’re making around $700K a year. But with federal ($175K) & state ($70K) taxes (plus we tithe – $70K), our take home pay is quite a bit lower (closer to $450K).
Homes are incredibly expensive where we live so we started renting when we moved here 4 years ago; we currently pay $3,800 a month for a 2 bed/2 bath. I’d also add that property values rise 8-10% a year where I live, and even during the recessions it has not gone down more than 10% or so. Outside of our rent, we have daycare for our son ($2,300 a month) and then assorted living expenses (I’d estimate that’s around $2,000 a month).
So one way I’ve thought about it is that outside of housing, my expenses per month are under $5K. Our take home income per month is around $37K. Currently we take most of that money and split it between investing and building up a cash reserve for a down payment (or a large market drop).
But theoretically couldn’t I be spending something like $25K a month on a mortgage and still have plenty of cushion? I would never do that (although around here even that amount would not get nearly as big of a house as you might think). But that would allow me to buy more house than any of those rules of thumb would suggest.
Does that make sense?
ESI says
I think you meant to post this on the post about how much house you should buy, right? 馃檪
No worries…it’s fine here too…though fewer people will see it.
Yes, it does make sense and if you choose to do that it’s a reasonable decision given how much you make. You’re so far above what the average income is that your rules tend to be different. 馃檪
One thing to consider is whether you want to go for Financial Independence anytime soon. If you can sock away $30k or so per month, you could achieve FI pretty quickly if you were determined. You could save a bundle, then move to almost anywhere else in the world and buy either a castle or a place with 200 acres and live however you want.
Not that that is appealing to you — it may or may not be — but it’s worth considering.
Interviewee says
Hi all –
If anyone is subscribed to this post, I still haven’t received further updates from the company I had onsite interview with. Maybe they have found another person, maybe not. It’s been over a month now.
Meanwhile, I have another opportunity coming up to interview with hiring manager. I passed the recruiter interview, where I was asked about compensation and relocation. This time, I avoided it but not for too long. Recruiter was adamant and his point was to make sure not to waste each other’s time if expectations are not right. So asked back what’s the typical range and he provided it. I then gave him a range with an overlap to his range. He said their company also offers cash bonus etc. but I brought the focus back about the job.
So, my phone interview with HM is on Monday. I will read up the post on interview and let you know.
ESI says
I’m still reading. There may not be many others as I hadn’t installed the “subscribe to comments” feature when this was posted.
It’s poor form for them to hire someone else and not inform you. If this is what happened, consider yourself lucky for not getting the job. Working at a company that treats interviewees that way probably has some issues in other areas that you won’t want to deal with.
That said, after a month I think it’s completely fine to call them and ask the status (if you want to).
Good luck in the next interview. Your time on the first one is paying off as you have already learned how to steer the conversation. 馃檪 You’ll get better every time you go through the process until you finally get the job you want.
I wish you the best success! Let me know how it goes for you!
JayCeezy says
Still reading too, wish you well Interviewee!
Interviewee says
Thanks @ESI, @JayCeezy – I will try to do my best this Monday. It’s 30 min with HM and I am wondering if the questions range from technical to behavioral. I guess I will polish my answers based on job description and use the same keywords.
Mike H says
I’m reading this too and will help you if I can Inteviewee…
Interviewee says
Thanks.
Well my phone interview with HM last Monday was OK. As HM was detailing more about the job specifics, I felt this is a good fit for me and I told him so. I explained what I was doing and it was good. At one point, I might have fumbled about a question about my background in Statistics (I don’t have much). But I tried hard to answer that question that might have ended up an elaborated one (happens when not prepared). The HM interrupted me and went on with other questions. More or less, he sounded cold and neutral.
They wanted to fill this role quick. When I asked what the next steps are, he said he’ll give his feedback to the recruiter through whom I will know the next steps. In my experience, this response wasn’t very encouraging as the previous interviews I had with other HMs always ended up with when I can be available for on-site interviews.
I don’t know if I nailed this interview as I haven’t heard back from the recruiter yet (it’s been a week and 2 reminder emails to him). I still feel I could’ve been more coherent and to the point. Little disappointed. Maybe I am thinking too much but I will wait to hear back either way…..on to the next job search….
ESI says
Keep at it.
And keep practicing those interview questions! It will pay off!
https://esimoney.com/how-to-ace-an-interview/
Interviewee says
Thanks! Interestingly, I heard back from the recent interview and also from the old interview with other company, today. In short, I didn’t get the offers at either places.
1. The interview that I had with the first company months ago was good, but the recruiter started low-balling me. She just informed me today that they are hiring internal candidates for the job. Note that the positions were open since March-June.
2. I shared my exp with the phone interview in the second company above. I heard back from the recruiter today, who politely responded of not taking me in for onsite interview. But he had the following message:
“Your experience is amazing, but we feel this role will not be enough for your experience. We won鈥檛 be able to come up even close to your comp needs. So at this time we are going to move forward with some other candidates that will be able to hopefully grow with in the role. And one day get the amount of experience you have.
Please look for a potential Manager role that will open in Q1 of next year!”
Question – I applied for a Sr. technical role and eventually aim for a managerial role in the future. Did I underestimate my ability or is the recruiter being polite? I am usually used to yes or no responses, but this was different. If you find this message encouraging, what are your thoughts on responding to this message?
Thanks!
ESI says
It’s hard to tell as there are so many games that are played by some people, but I’d take it as an encouragement.
You should keep practicing your questions so you are very good at them. Look for a wide variety of spots — both a bit above your level and maybe a full step above. You never know what will work out.
And if you’re still looking later, follow up on the Manager role next year.
Interviewee says
Thank you ESI. I have a feeling that I am losing the battle regarding the salary questions. Usually the recruiter gives me a range and I try to overlap that range on the higher side. But later on, they tell me that it’s too high for my role as it happened in this case. Going forward, should I go with their range and negotiate later?
Without speculating further, I agree that practicing the questions for the interview will yield positive results.
ESI says
Google around a bit. There’s tons of advice on how to talk about salary.
Interviewee says
Hello all –
If anyone is still following this post, I have an update. After couple of months break from job search, I am back again in the field. No job offers last year, so I moved on and have been interviewing with other firms.
So right now, I got a another on-site interview chance from the [same company] that I started this post with. This time, the hiring manager called me first and was very much impressed. He setup the on-site interview in couple of days, so I am flying to the site soon.
Now, weird thing happened! So far, I wasn’t in touch with HR. Now, I get an email that HR wants to call me before the interview. I requested to have that call ‘after’ the on-site interview. So they scheduled it the next day. The weird part here is the same HR who ‘low-balled’ me on Sept 20th (see my comment on Sept 20, 12:03 PM above) is scheduled for this HR interview as well!
Back in Sept, she did manage to low ball me and tried to trick me on the title, no relocation etc. I didn’t budge and that offer never happened. They hired someone internal. I am not sure if she will recognize me this time, but I know her for sure. Assuming she recognizes me too, how should I proceed?