Here’s our latest interview with a millionaire as we seek to learn from those who have grown their wealth to high heights.
If you’d like to be considered for an interview, drop me a note and we can chat about specifics.
This interview took place in May.
My questions are in bold italics and their responses follow in black.
Let’s get started…
OVERVIEW
How old are you (and spouse if applicable, plus how long you’ve been married)?
I am 55 and my wife is 53.
We have been married 25 years.
We were together for 9 years before marrying.
Do you have kids/family (if so, how old are they)?
We have two girls, 16 and 19.
The oldest just finished sophomore year at a state university and the other is a high school sophomore.
What area of the country do you live in (and urban or rural)?
We are originally from the Philadelphia area and have lived in the DFW area and in Naples, FL.
Today we split time between the Western suburbs of Chicago and a lake house in Central IL. Chicagoland is our main residence.
What is your current net worth?
As of this writing, around $2.8 million.
What are the main assets that make up your net worth (stocks, real estate, business, home, retirement accounts, etc.) and any debt that offsets part of these?
- Retirement Accounts: $2.3MM. I rebalance annually to maintain 70-80% stocks and the rest bonds and cash. I bias toward index funds and ETF’s like FZROX and VTI. 5% of the stock portfolio is Berkshire Hathaway, which is my only single stock. I try to allocate 10% to tech.
- Taxable Brokerage: $70K
- Cash: $40K
- 529s: $93K
- Home Equity – Main House: $192K
- Home Equity – Lake House: $170K
- Collectibles – Comic Collection $50K-100K
- Collectibles – Pinball Machines $40K
Our only debts are the mortgages on both houses (total $390K), currently at 2.5% interest on 15 year loans.
We’ve paid off $100K+ in student loans and typically purchased cars on low interest loans that were paid as soon as possible.
EARN
What is your job?
I’m a VP of Product for a loyalty tech company. I fell into loyalty while working for a large airline, and quickly also made it a hobby, playing and gaming nearly every loyalty program I could join.
My wife is a Physician Assistant and works for the US DoD at a Navy base.
What is your annual income?
We will make ~$320K this year.
Tell us about your income performance over time. What was the starting salary of your first job, how did it grow from there (and what you did to make it grow), and where are you now?
My first job was cutting lawns starting at age 11. I knocked on doors and drummed up business that grew to 20 or so per week in high school and throughout college.
When I was 17, I started working in food service jobs as a busboy, dishwasher, ice cream scooper, and chef. The first gig paid a whopping $2.01/hr plus tips (the owner skimmed half the tips) and was eventually making $8/hr as Assistant Manager at a Cinnabon.
My parents were teachers so I never had the experience of seeing anyone go to an office, which I think is why I mostly worked in food service. My father also worked evenings as a bartender and weekends for a testing service to supplement his teaching income and take the summer off to go to Canada. That’s where I got my work ethic to maintain the lawn business and work part-time at the food service jobs through high school and college.
My first office job after college was as an account manager in direct mail making $17K/year. This was when I started seeing how technology could be used to solve problems. Stuff that is commonplace and has out of the box solutions today had to be thought out and built from scratch back then – it was fun! I also learned more about the business world and realized I should get more education. I was making $24K by the time I went to get my MBA.
After business school at age 29, I moved to TX and started at an airline for $55K/year. I really found my niche as the data geek for the company, learning as many of the data sources available and stitching them together for some of the first analyses done with customer data. These were early internet days, and I also launched several products that were very successful and became loyalty industry standards over the last two decades. I worked my way up the management chain to a Director level, making $115K by age 34.
The aftermath of 9/11 pushed pay cuts at the company and eventually forced me to look elsewhere. We moved to IL and after a short time at an oil company, I landed a remote job at a Canadian loyalty company that had been a vendor of mine. I was there ten years, working my way to VP and then moved to a car rental company in FL. I made in the mid-100’s to mid-200’s, depending on RSUs, and bonuses.
My wife had a similar start in food service jobs until college when she worked in the law library. After college, she worked as a marketing assistant and also held part-time jobs in retail and grocery. She eventually found her way to an organ transplant organization, which led to her interest in medicine.
She started taking nursing classes and applied for a Physician Assistant program that waitlisted her twice. The second time, she got a call to go and started the two year program about a month before we got married.
Since graduating, my wife has worked as a PA for physicians and hospital systems. Being a PA, there was not a lot of range in pay, but it allowed her to make $55-60K working part-time while the girls were young. She started the Federal job a couple years ago and gets market pay along with low cost benefits and a lot of time off.
What tips do you have for others who want to grow their career-related income?
Don’t be afraid to move for work, especially if it is in something you enjoy doing. This will be easier to do when you are young and/or have younger children. I would recommend against doing when the kids are older as it is too disruptive.
Understand your personality and demeanor. I’ve never met someone who had a successful startup without having fire in their belly for it. If you aren’t a political animal or strong on social cues, you will find the corporate ladder very frustrating.
My wife’s choice of becoming a physician assistant has given her tremendous flexibility to make good money full and part-time and move without much worry of finding a new job.
We did some periods of long distance over the years. While my wife was in PA school, she was super busy, so this didn’t matter, but we lived apart before the Chicagoland move and before and after the FL move. I would limit this as much as possible as you miss out on family time that you won’t get back.
What’s your work-life balance look like?
This has always been a big deal for me. I view my job as something to fund my hobbies, and I just happen to have been fortunate enough to work in one of my hobbies (accumulating points and miles for travel). I’m the guy who used to go fishing before and after work. In business school in upstate NY, I lived on Cayuga Lake and fished 30 hours a week.
I have always been willing to trade off time for money and I take every last minute of vacation time. I always ask for extra vacation time when starting a new role and have six weeks at my current gig. I’ve stayed away from commutes over 30 minutes because they leave no time for anything else in the day. I have yet to meet the person who looks fondly on their commute time.
Location is key. I would never live or work in a city because it does not fit my lifestyle. By having a lake house where I hunt and fish, I can be out and back in minutes. I tend to burn my vacation in half days, hunting in the morning and evening, and working midday during deer season. I do the same with fishing, but not as often. In a typical year I am out for deer 30-50 days (mostly archery) and fish 50+ days.
Before we had the lake house, especially in TX where there are a lot of lakes, I tended to focus on fishing after work or take early half days then fish. My goal in TX was to catch a 10 lb bass and I focused on that for several years, ultimately landing a 13 pounder.
Besides hunting and fishing, I bike, row and play pinball. I try to hit the rowing machine or bike several times a week. I bought a pinball machine just before the pandemic and will have six by the time this is published. The pins are all at the main house and I play nearly every day I am there.
My wife has always been accommodating of my hobbies and work travel, which is fortunate.
My wife’s role as a PA meant she could go part-time as soon as our first was born. I always encouraged her staying home as many days as she wanted. She tends to focus on her weekends for free time. Today she commutes an hour each way, but works hours that start and end before the rush hour. This also leaves evening time. She tends to do more of the planning for our vacations and burns the points and miles I accumulate.
Do you have any sources of income besides your career? If so, can you list them, give us a feel for how much you earn with each, and offer some insight into how you developed them?
No additional sources of income.
SAVE
What is your annual spending?
$120K-$160K annually.
I guess a bit more now since we have college expenses for the oldest.
What are the main categories (expenses) this spending breaks into?
Housing has always been a big one as we have two. Mortgages plus overhead. I also try to do one large project at the lake each year.
Gas with back and forth to the lake, and my wife’s commute. I may not commute but I drive a lot. We have 3 drivers (soon to be 4) in the family and 5 vehicles. Plus we own a few boats that eat their fair share of gas.
Food and dining. We typically go out to dinner twice a week, although this usually includes Chinese buffet near the lake versus anything fancy.
College tuition. We are draining the 529’s and paying cash to cover all costs. We have 6 years left between the oldest and the youngest. I’d like both girls to graduate without any student loan debt.
Do you have a budget? If so, how do you implement it?
My wife has generally delegated the money to me since I’m a numbers person.
When I was younger I tracked every penny I spent in Quicken. I was maniacal in looking for leaky money and stopping that spending so we could put it toward important things. This was good for managing a tight money situation and understanding where it went.
Today, I do a single “Budget” every year that looks at expected monthly income and expenses. I try to allow for 1-2 major purchases per year. I ratchet back items where they need to be.
During the year I sanity check our spending against this, but we have generally had a lot of flexibility with our spending. The key has always been putting the savings on autopilot and keeping it where we can’t access it.
What percentage of your gross income do you save and how has that changed over time?
Some of the early sources I followed talked about 10% and that’s what I strove for over the years.
We hit at least 10%, but shoot for 15%.
What’s your best tip for saving (accumulating) money?
Always pay yourself first. If you do that, you can spend the rest without a ton of worry.
If you are married, figure out how to live on one salary and save on top of it.
Rational self-interest is a big deal here. Ignore those who tell you to borrow or spend more or take a crappy deal.
Don’t lend to, or borrow from relatives or friends.
What’s your best tip for spending less money?
Train yourself to defer gratification and study what you are buying. This can sometimes lead to analysis paralysis, but most people have a lot of stuff they bought because they wanted and then barely used.
Try waiting a few months or even a year or two, depending on the item. If you still want it, you will likely find it cheaper. Let someone else pay the price of being an early adopter.
Live like a poor person in most areas so you can focus your spending on the things that are important.
Track your expenses to understand where money is “leaking”. Eliminate the leaks and prioritize your spending.
Carry no debt except mortgages. Minimize all other debt as fast as you can do. As much as I play credit cards and use them for points and miles, I learned long ago never to carry a balance. Debt is poison. Any time you do take a loan, pay it back as quickly as possible. Better yet, avoid the loan. The debtor is slave to the lender. If you are carrying debt, don’t play cards for points and miles.
If your mind is oriented toward it, learn how to game the system. Marketers offer promotions all the time to incentivize people to buy things. With the way turnover happens at companies, these marketers tend to make the same dumb mistakes time and time again. Whether couponing or bank/credit card offers, these can open up arbitrage opportunities that give you low/no cost stuff.
What is your favorite thing to spend money on/your secret splurge?
My hobbies have always been my splurge. Hunting and fishing equipment. Pinball machines. Records, CD’s and bootleg tapes (now digitized). Concerts. Comic books. Travel.
I tend to move between them from year to year.
INVEST
What is your investment philosophy/plan?
I’m a believer in the stock market and was 100% invested until after I reached the first million.
I was a long time listener to Bob Brinker and a big fan of John Bogle, both of whom firmly planted the ideas that I could do it myself, diversify, and keep costs low. I’ve mostly held index funds, with a few managed funds and individual stocks coming and going over the years.
More recently I started to expand into bonds and cash and am managing toward 20-30% bonds and cash, shifting a percent or two annually.
We’ve always focused on tax advantaged savings, typically 401K, TSP or 403Bs as they were available. Besides the tax deferral benefits, I found these vehicles keep the money away from our reach. After tax money is too accessible.
The market drop in 2008 was a key time for me. I held tight while things went down and down. Then I freaked out and sold a good chunk of my investments. A week after selling, I recognized that it was the buying opportunity of a lifetime. I bought back what I sold and put every available cent in the market.
Until 2016, we also held no emergency savings. If there was an extra dollar, it should be in the market. Not sure I would recommend this to anyone.
What has been your best investment?
For my wife, it was going back to school to become a Physician Assistant.
For myself, I’d say getting my MBA. My undergrad degree taught me how to think, but the MBA gave me the business skills I needed to do well in my career and landed me in the airline industry. My undergrad and MBA are both from Ivy League universities, and at least for the MBA, I figured out a payback period when taking student loans.
For my family, the best investment has been the lake house and our traveling.
Our trip to South Africa was probably the most memorable and one I want to do again.
What has been your worst investment?
Real estate aka our main homes.
We bought our first IL house in 2004 a few years before the market peak, and sold it in 2016 at a $74K loss. Literally no equity after 12 years. I still haven’t tallied the cost with maintenance, taxes and interest and don’t want to do.
Our TX and FL houses were each close to break-even.
Every time I consider purchasing rental properties, I remember how much sleep I lost over selling these houses. By contrast, I can watch my portfolio go up and down by $100K and sleep like a baby.
What’s been your overall return?
I model things at 6-8%.
We had a couple accounts that were isolated enough to track return and beat the market by 2 points, but they were tech heavy.
With the current portfolio mix, I’d estimate 8-10% overall.
How often do you monitor/review your portfolio?
I track my portfolio in Mint and look at it every few days.
I would not recommend this for most folks, but I have trained myself to consider the increasing ups and downs as an indicator the balance is decent sized.
I rebalance annually, and have taken a year end snapshot for a decade or so.
NET WORTH
How did you accumulate your net worth?
Once I learned about the power of compounding and how the stock market grew over time, I focused my energy on saving at least 10% of my pay in a 401K and getting my wife on the same page.
We always kept the money invested in the market. We also contributed to IRAs and after tax investments, but those always felt like we could take the money out if needed, which we did.
The 401K’s were sacred. Staying 100% in the market was sacred. Being broadly diversified was sacred. So much so, that during potential job changes, I had HR reps tell me I was the only one who ever asked about the 401K. And at the Canadian company I worked for, I started their 401K for our 4 US employees.
Making around $300K annually, it is impossible to say pay didn’t impact our situation. Early on in my career I determined I should try to make as much as possible and I ran the numbers on going to business school, job changes and moves. I did the same for my wife’s decision to go to PA school and her job changes.
Being focused spenders helped us stay below our means and push money towards investments. We literally had the wheels fall off two vehicles before we bought new ones. Gaming loyalty programs created money that yielded 1-2 trips per year that had free hotel and air – we generally only spent on food and car rentals. Working for an airline for 8 years also helped on flight costs.
What would you say is your greatest strength in the ESI wealth-building model (Earn, Save or Invest) and why would you say it’s tops?
We are investors. I learned about compounding and the stock market and focused on it as maniacally as possible.
My stated goal in my early 20’s was to become a millionaire. I found a formula that matched my personality and followed it. I was always looking for better and faster options, but every time I studied them, I found they were not as effective as the time proven and boring path I had chosen.
What road bumps did you face along the way to becoming a millionaire and how did you handle them?
The 2008 crash was a shocker for me.
I cashed a chunk of money out for about a week until I smartened up and determined I was looking at the buying opportunity of a lifetime.
After that I put every possible cent in the market.
What are you currently doing to maintain/grow your net worth?
I’m staying the course.
As I write this, we are watching the market sink. Not my first time seeing it, so I am continuing to do what I have done and invest regularly.
Do you have a target net worth you are trying to attain?
Hitting the first million was a big life goal.
$10MM is the next big goal.
How old were you when you made your first million and have you had any significant behavior shifts since then?
I knew it was coming around 46 and hit it at 48.
I would say we’ve done a bit more spending since then.
One thing I heard on Bob Brinker’s show that struck me were those who saved and saved without enjoying their money. Bob would admonish them to go spend more and not end up the richest person in the graveyard. I am still learning in this area, but do feel like I can take my foot off the gas pedal a bit.
What money mistakes have you made along the way that others can learn from?
I wish I started investing as a teenager. When I was a teen I poured most of my lawn business earnings into my comic collection. I didn’t learn about the market until my early 20’s.
I’d also warn that becoming a millionaire is boring. You will start looking around for more interesting or better options to invest because you can’t believe it is so simple and boring. Try to ignore those feelings. Worst case, give yourself some play money to test how much smarter you really are versus the time tested approach.
I tried alternative investments, like Peer Street and Lending Club. These were time wasters that never outperformed the market, and left me with extra tax forms to deal with.
My stab at single stocks using the Motley Fool ended up performing no better than the market – the big winners felt good, but the losers were real stinkers.
Again, some play money is your best approach. For Peer Street that was $10K. For Motley Fool, the “play” amount $100K but with a broadly diversified set of stocks, I viewed it as less risky.
What advice do you have for ESI Money readers on how to become wealthy?
Pay attention to the advice from those who have done it. Find the path that best fits your demeanor and skills, and follow it.
Ignore all money advice from broke people. If your first question to someone giving the advice is “Are you a millionaire?” or “What’s your net worth?”, you might offend someone, but you’ll usually stop the advice right there.
FUTURE
What are your plans for the future regarding lifestyle?
My wife will work to at least 62 when she is vested in her pension. There may be some options to go part-time that she will investigate more after the girls are finished college.
I thought I was going to retire in my early 50’s, but so far my work is interesting and I continue to learn. I have a lot of flexibility with time off and working from home. I’ll likely work until the youngest is done college then either try something else or shift to consulting part-time.
What are your retirement plans?
I expect we will ultimately live at the lake and possibly have a place in Florida or someplace warmer to spend the winter.
We are checking out Florida cities. I really liked Naples when we lived there, but it was 15-20 years too early in life.
I’m still not sure if we will end up as seasonal renters or actually buy. Two houses are hard to maintain unless they are close.
Are there any issues in retirement that concern you? If so, how are you planning to address them?
I’m 55 and have already had 3 hip and 1 knee replacements. Arthritis sucks. Between this and the pandemic, I am learning to spend more now in case health issues bog me down.
My other concern is the current political environment. Wealth accumulation should be celebrated as something to try for and attain, but we have politicians who are focused on demonizing “the rich”. Calls for taxing wealth are particularly concerning because I know they will find their way down to millionaires after they run out of billionaires to tax. Not much I can do about this but continue to vote and educate people on how wealth is accumulated.
MISCELLANEOUS
How did you learn about finances and at what age did it “click”?
Late in college and early after is when things clicked for me.
I had looked at insurance sales and the pitch was how it was an “investment”. The trainer talked about how the investment grew by compounding over time. I did not take the job, but the concept of compound interest stuck in my head and I realized I could become a millionaire.
Add a money guy named Harry Gross on local Philly talk radio and Charles Givens (crazy, I know) infomercials sparking me to learn more about investing.
While I was doing all my research, I saw a real life family example of someone with limited education who had invested in their company’s stock over decades and died wealthy. That really locked the concepts in my head.
Who inspired you to excel in life? Who are your heroes?
My grandparents on my mom’s side were a big influence. They always had time for us and some of my best childhood memories were time spent fishing with my grandfather.
My parents instilled a strong work ethic, and drove home the idea that you focus your spending on what you really want. That’s how they could afford a cottage in Canada on a teacher’s salary.
Do you have any favorite money books you like/recommend? If so, can you share with us your top three and why you like them?
The Millionaire Next Door was the first book that really affirmed the lifestyle we were living in the 90’s. I remember hearing Bob Brinker interview Tom Stanley when the book was first published. I bought a copy and read it right away. It gave me stats that justified what I had been doing and helped keep me going down the right path. Funny enough, I remember discussing the book with a few friends at work who also read it. With maybe one exception, all of us are now millionaires.
Poor Charlie’s Almanack compiles speeches from Charlie Munger. Besides being a great investor, Munger is one of the great thinkers of our lifetime. His speech on the causes of human misjudgment is a classic that forces you to think about your biases in decision-making.
Winning the Loser’s Game by Charles Ellis is another one I learned about from the Bob Brinker show. It makes a strong case for index investing and not trying to beat the market and provided some more affirmation of the approach I had been taking and things I had seen in the market.
Do you give to charity? Why or why not? If you do, what percent of time/money do you give?
My wife and the girls volunteer from time to time.
I held volunteer roles in local government, serving on and then running the local Zoning Board and Plan Commission.
We give money sporadically, but not regularly. It was just never ingrained as a habit when we were younger.
Do you plan to leave an inheritance for your heirs (how do you plan to distribute your wealth at your death)? What are your reasons behind this plan?
I like the concept from Steven Pollan’s book Die Broke. If I could do, I’d spend my last penny on my death bed or my wife on hers.
The girls will have been taught what to do, and besides early Roth IRAs, they’ll have accounts I started for them years ago and have matched their contributions. Plus they will have started out of college without student loans.
While I’m sure they, and any offspring of theirs, will inherit something, we are not actively planning setting aside money for them.
ol70 says
Great write up, congrats on such a successful path you and your family have had in life! I’m a pinball collector as well but have to part with a couple of cool ones as we transition to the next phase of our retirement. If you are interested in a 1977 Evel Knievel from Bally’s let me know, it would be great if it goes to a good home!
esi331 says
Thanks. It has been an interesting experience so far.
MI-94 says
I am curious, on your collectibles…. How liquid are those? Do you think you could easily convert to cash for the amounts noted above? Interesting items! This I think was the first interview that noted collectibles as part of the net worth. Congrats on the success. Nice interview.
esi331 says
Thanks. I’d say liquidity is a mixed bag, which is why I gave such a wide range on the comics. Pinball machines seem to move a decent speeds. Prices are available on Pinside and you can sell there and on FB marketplace. Supply chain issues screwed up the market and now there are long waits for new games, which has driven up prices. I haven’t tried selling any comics yet, but it looks like a slow process that favors key issues, popular titles and quality condition.
Jim says
Great post, love reading about successful people and how they got there. It seems that many millionaires start of their working careers by being a hustler, and having multiple jobs at an early age. I think this is so important, as it teaches you how to be versatile, a trait which pays dividends later on. Thanks for sharing this!
Paper Tiger (aka MI-27 & MIU-8) says
Great job managing your ESI. Well done in keeping your debt low. You must feel awesome having your 2 properties at 2.5%, 15-year mortgages, especially seeing where rates are now.
10M is a nice NW goal but at your age, don’t take on too much risk to try and get there. You are already on track to win the race with just what you are doing now!
Mike says
Hahaha, this is so me! “I have always been willing to trade off time for money and I take every last minute of vacation time. I always ask for extra vacation time when starting a new role and have six weeks at my current gig. I’ve stayed away from commutes over 30 minutes because they leave no time for anything else in the day. I have yet to meet the person who looks fondly on their commute time.”
I see people working like 50-80 hours a week in these interviews and I’ve struggled my whole career to get my 40 in! 😉