Warning: This may get a little rant-y. But I’ve had it.
I’m in a mood after so many recent interactions from those who want something for nothing.
Unfortunately my experience with this is not just a recent occurrence.
Let’s do a quick review of a few ways I’ve seen this attitude play out over and over again.
Counseling Those in Money Trouble
Many of you know that I got my personal finance start by counseling people in money/debt trouble.
My wife and I were part of a national organization that would refer people to us — those from our city — when they wrote in to HQ asking for help. We did this on a volunteer basis.
One of the policies was that we were not supposed to contact those requesting help. We would get a referral including the person’s name, address, and phone number, but they were to initiate contact. We were sent their info so we were aware that they might be calling. But we were not to call them.
Here are the rough results we saw over and over again through several years:
- Out of all the people who had taken the time to write the HQ for help and were then referred to us, a very small number (maybe 25%) actually contacted us.
- Of those who contacted us, once they found out the next step was 1) a meeting and 2) they actually had to do pre-budget work in advance of that meeting, only 25% of that group would go ahead and schedule a meeting.
- Of those who came to a meeting so we could discuss their spending/budget, only 25% or so would agree to come to a second meeting where we could really dig into the numbers, see how things were going (keep them accountable), etc.
If you’re keeping track, that gets us down to 1.6% of those who wrote in were committed enough to attend at least to two meetings.
The reason? Most of them wanted a fast fix.
They wanted a 60-minute solution to a 20-year problem. When it was clear that didn’t exist, they cut us off.
But those people were at least committed enough to meet us. Most didn’t even want to invest any time in fixing their finances.
In short, they didn’t want to do anything different but wanted their money problems to disappear.
Friends and Family
As we got more entrenched into helping people with their money, our friends and family started asking questions.
They probably had money problems of their own and wanted help. Or perhaps they were just curious.
So we’d share things like how to do a budget, how to control spending, and the like.
Once they saw that our recommendations required effort and self-control, we often got comments like, “Oh, I could never do anything like that” or “That seems too restrictive.”
In short, they didn’t want to do anything different but wanted their money problems to disappear.
Blog Commenters
On this site (not much, but a little), my former site (some more), and the blogs of many others (a lot more) I see the same line of thinking across the web.
People put up arguments (what I’d call excuses) as to why they can’t do this or that. Why certain things are too hard. Or why this or that can’t be done.
Some examples? Here goes:
- People claim they can’t grow their incomes. Yes, they can. I guarantee you that for every profession that exists there are people who make more and people who make less. Learn what those who make more do and copy it.
- People claim they could “never” live without this or that expense. We once had a lady tell us that $50 weekly manicures were a “need”. And yet they were $50,000 in debt. Go figure.
- People say they don’t have time to do this or that, make these changes or those changes, etc. Yet stats will show they waste hours each day watching TV or on the web.
- People say they can never get out of debt. But they aren’t doing anything to work on it. Maybe they should try staying up until 2 am writing freelance articles like I did for years to pay off their debt. No, that would require them to actually do something!
I hear it all the time — excuses, excuses, excuses.
People bemoan the fact that they aren’t wealthy and yet their lives are characterized by inaction. They want to do nothing and somehow become wealthy.
Chatzky Backlash
Not long ago, author Jean Chatzky posted this:
By the time you’re 30, aim to have 1x your annual income set aside for retirement. At 40, 3x; at 50, 6x; at 60, 8x; and by retirement, 10x.
1,600 comments later, every excuse in the book was thrown at her on why these were totally unrealistic numbers.
Shame on Jean for suggesting that people actually have financial goals and then save to meet them. What was she thinking? Doesn’t she know that there’s NO WAY anyone could save that type of money?
Sheesh.
Bloggers
Switching the subject a bit from money to blogging, the same issue holds true.
You wouldn’t believe the number of bloggers who think they can build a site, post a few articles, then sit back and watch the money come in.
And heaven forbid they would spend any money marketing their site. After all, that’s how new businesses work, right? You simply “build it and they will come”.
This is why so many blogs go under. People expect they can do little to nothing and make it rain financially.
It doesn’t work that way. You need a plan, hard work, and to invest some cash to come up with a viable, money-making blog.
Get to Work
What really gets me irked about this “something for nothing” attitude is when I run into people at the gym, the store, restaurants, conferences, airports, and on and on who I chat with a bit.
The conversation inevitably comes around to what I “do” and I say I’m retired. They usually respond with something like, “Wow, that would be nice!” (I actually had one guy ask, “Is that possible?”) Ha!
When I explain to them that the basics come down to E, S, and I and I lay it out there, they say, “I could never do that.”
What they mean is, “I don’t want to do that.”
And yet they want the result.
Well, if you want what I have, you have to do what I’ve done. It’s that simple. It’s not going to fall into your lap.
I talked about this in one of my very first posts titled Why You May or May Not Want to Listen to Me where I said:
One important point before we move along. You can’t simply pick and choose from what I say and expect the same results. If you do what I’ve done, you should get similar results. If you don’t, your results will vary. That’s ok, I’m 100% fine with you picking what works for you and what doesn’t. But I’m just giving a word of warning that you can’t take what you like, discard the rest, and hold me accountable for your results. That’s just not logical.
That’s not to say that I have the only path to financial independence. I don’t. But whatever your path to wealth you need to work the ESI Scale in some way so that you are able to save and invest what you earn, then turn that into a nest egg that can support you.
There are many ways of doing that, but they all take some sort of commitment, discipline, and sacrifice. They don’t just happen on their own.
It doesn’t matter one bit to me what you want to do or don’t want to do. That is your business and your life choices. But quit complaining that you don’t get the results without putting in the work. It’s unrealistic to expect that would happen and you’re not doing yourself any favors. Plus you’re aggravating me along the way.
That’s all.
Whew! I feel better now! 😉
Bernd Doss says
Glad you got that off your chest. Felt pretty much the same after talking to my grandson who seem to have all the answers, especially the answers it took me years to learn.
I didn’t quite understand ESI until I read your blog last year, so I’m just getting started, but your commentary and comments from your readers, have benefited me. I am now, after too many years (77) am saving and investing more than I thought i ever could. Thanks.
ESI says
Haha! Kids (and grandkids) can be like that!
I know my kids are way smarter than I am quite often — they have it all figured out!
P.S. Does the sarcasm come through in this comment? 🙂
Chris @ Duke of Dollars says
The transformation of thinking that where we are in our life is the sum of the decisions we’ve made, whether that be money, work-life balance, amount of TV we watch, etc. creates the perception and reality that you are better in control of your life.
I feel that once you realize you are the CEO of your life, the idea that anything is given to you for free just disappears :D.
sendaiben says
Ha, ha, I must have posted half a dozen versions of this rant 😉
This one is my favourite. It introduces the ‘loser response’: http://www.retirejapan.info/blog/personal-finance-for-beginners-iii
The Physician Philosopher says
Go get ’em, ESI.
Hard work pays off, and easy work pays little.
I get the same frustration with my residents sometimes when they say similar things. “I can’t do that.” What you mean is “You can’t do that and buy the big doctor house, have the nice doctor car, and put your kids in private school.”
This problem is a human problem not entrenched to any specific population, unfortunately. It seems like a millenial problem at first, but then you realize that humans (at least the one’s I often experience here in America) face this problem universally regardless of age or education.
Glad you are setting the record straight.
ESI says
That’s a good point. Millennials often get the reputation for wanting something for nothing, but I’ve seen the problem for three decades, and with people of all ages. It’s pretty widespread.
Accidental FIRE says
It’s the same in my road cycling club. It’s this time of year that the races get serious and I’ll no-doubt hear some folks saying “how did you get so fit this early in the year?”. When I tell them I worked my ass off all winter they just change the conversation. They want a shortcut, as if I’m taking some kind of magic pill. No, I did many many days of intervals in the cold and rain. Here’s what it comes down to:
The shortcut is – there is no shortcut
ESI says
I remember my days of cycling — how I HATED the winter. The weather was so terrible in Michigan that I couldn’t get outside for months, so I had to put my bike on a spinner and ride mile after mile in the basement. There’s nothing worse than riding a bike going nowhere!!!
But you’re right — it paid off in the spring. I was ready to go as soon as the weather cleared while my buddies were huffing and puffing.
Anyway, thanks for reminding me of those “fun” times. Hope you have a great season on the road. Be safe out there!
Accidental FIRE says
Trainers do suck indeed. Thanks man!
Johndogsan says
I get the “your so lucky that you are in good shape @ 47”.
Uhhhh, are you up at 5:30am working out and meal planning like me? Didn’t think so.
IT’S NOT AN ACCIDENT! Hard work and dedication go a long way!
Accidental FIRE says
On the “you’re so lucky” thing – I have an upcoming post on that!!! It’s already written and in the queue, I think you’ll enjoy it!
ESI says
Send it to me when it’s posted! Love to take a look.
Mr. Freaky Frugal says
Nice rant!
I have had similar experiences with certain relatives. I feel like I’m watching a slow motion Financial train wreck. It’s a bit painful.
ESI says
“Slow Motion Financial Train Wreck”
Maybe a new reality show? 🙂
Coopersmith says
Every once in a while I slip and say something to someone that catches people off guard. Once when I bought a new car the person said “part of the perpetual car payment club?” and I said no I paid cash and got that look of how did you do that?
Another one is at my age a lot of people are asking when I think I might retire and I say I will see where I am at at 59 1/2, to witch they comment I will probably never be able to retire. I could reply “well that sounds like a financial plan that you will achieve”.
Only my best friend a few other friends and this blog know that my house is paid for. No one in both sides of our family know.
Both our sons have engineering degrees and went away to college and the one only had $7000 in debt. The rest was from mom and dad saving and sacrificing since they were born. Have not had the opportunity to use “you should have been saving what little you could over the 18 years on the potential that your kid will need some sort of continuing education.”
As you can see I could go on a rant also. I agree that it does get tiring too see peoples poor choices and they won’t do anything to change.Yet when you try to explain what you did, yes they always have an excuse. ” Well both you and your wife were working so that makes it easier”. Not it made it harder because we both had to work on keeping our kids as successful as they could be while balancing the demands of work. Two young men with engineering degrees and both are starting out with a healthy salary.
Even my wife is starting to see the poor choice that her friends make or even there adult children of our friends.Our friends with difficult to market degrees.( Anthropology) Her parents were not the best money managers and these years are lean. Her cousins have huge debt.
An all we can do is sit back and observe as you can’t help that person as they don’t want to help themselves by changing or listen to how you did it. Hard to share your success without the cloak of a blog. Trolls can comment but at least they don’t know who you are.
ESI says
Love this!
Maybe I should start “rant Saturday” where we can all share our stories like this!!
Alero01 says
This is a great idea, ESI – please do!
ESI says
Anyone who wants to email me their rant, bring it on!!!! 🙂
Matt says
I love the idea of ‘rant Saturday’. We need humorous examples of ridiculous stories of dumb money moves.
Also, ESI- what is the name of the organization that counsels those needing financial help. I like the idea, but curious if you have some additional thoughts. Do you still do it?
ESI says
They are no longer around (probably because of the low participation rate). Closest thing these days would be a Dave Ramsey class of some sort.
T-money says
I’m so glad I read this article today!
A collegue of mine sitting next to me in the office is bragging (loud) about his brand new car that he bought this morning and simultanously planning his family’s vacation for next summer with a 12-15000 USD price tag.
I guess the reason why it provokes me is that it takes hard work to reach FI, but someday it will pay off!
Best regards,
FI in 7 years (or 10, depending on how rich I want to be) 🙂
JayCeezy says
Coopersmith, that is a great story about the nosy ‘friend’ who passive-aggressively asks, “part of the perpetual-car-payment club?” They don’t want an answer (as your answer confirmed), but instead want validation that their choices/situation are not worse than yours. They make it worse when they start ‘offering explanations’ why you are doing better, i.e. “you and your wife were working”, they are really making it plain that they are not happy for you, and your answers are threatening to their self-image. Nice that you play your cards closely, IRL! Continued success!
Razorback 14 says
Loved reading the rant this morning. Thanks for taking time to lead in this area as well.
July 9th will be a special day for my family. My wife and I will celebrate 35 yrs of marriage and we’ve tried to stay focused on ESI , even before we knew the power of this simple process—-
Here are some of our results:
Earn: income
When we married in 1983, we had a combined household income of $25,000 —- now, 35 yrs later, our household income just hit $400K. We plan to retire in 32 months (65 and 62 yrs of age) and our combined income could hit the $425K mark. We both are educators —- spent most of our time working in public education-
Save: Net-Worth
We have fought debt every year for 35 yrs. When we married, we both had saved $8K each, so we started with $16K. Today, our net-worth is almost $3 million —- our goal is to end up somewhere between $4 and $5 million —- that means, I’ll continue to work until I’m 70 (not sure about the next gig) while my wife will retire at 62.
Invest:
We work directly with a strong and Smart financial advisor who helps keep us keep a laser focused on building our nest egg. The egg that will give back for the rest of our lives.
Hard work, committed focus, constantly building support systems, and a great partnership with my wife has led to our results—- very few excuses were made during our time together.
Our 2 boys have their Masters degrees—- and we cash flowed their education and helped them start life being debt free.
Life is good —- and if we can do this , anyone can —- trust me.
I feel better too.
ESI says
You should feel better! That’s amazing!!
One of the groups I hear most often from is those in public education. they say they can’t get ahead — can’t increase their income in any way.
I think you have disproved that! This is why I tell people to find someone in their profession who has been successful and ask what they have done. Learn what others know and then they can apply it to their lives.
But that would actually take some effort…
Razorback 14 says
Exactly—- net working in public education is so easy and I’ve found the educator group who was a bit older than me were quick to help, but I had to ask for help and that took effort, I guess.
Here’s the odd part about our story —- in the early part of our marriage (no kids) , we could’ve saved more and now that we’re in the late part of our marriage ( no kids) , we could be saving more.
Thank God for our children, I’m thinking they really helps us save money. Haha.
Alaska49 says
Teacher and former principal here….ways to make extra money as a teacher: coach a sport, sponsor a club, teach summer school, work an extended contract to do extra things for your school or district – they do exist, but you may need to ask about them, sell lesson plans, tutor after school, private tutor or test prep at a center based program like Sylvan Learning Centers, work a weekend job, work a summer job, start a blog and let the money roll in…joke. Want free travel, lead a student group during Christmas, Spring Break or Summer and you get free travel – airfare and lodging…get enough kids and your spouse or friend goes free too…….that took me two minutes and I wasn’t even trying…lots more.
Dave says
If it were easy, everyone would be financially independent. It takes discipline and sacrifice. Most people are not willing to be uncomfortable. It is not a mystery why 10% of the population has 90% if the money.
ESI says
I’ve often said that it’s simple to become wealthy (i.e. the concepts are easy to understand) but not easy (because it requires self-control, etc.).
That’s why people often say that “personal finance is common sense” and yet most of them are still broke (or close to it.)
TheHardenedInvestor says
I knew it was bad, but wow, I can’t believe how bad it really is. 1.6% of people, and that was of the group who were interested from the start! Yikes.
You’re right, I guess it isn’t easy. Money buys freedom, and that’s the only thing worth saving for in my mind.
Joe says
And the top 1% hold 40% of the wealth. I know many 1 percenters. They spend a lot, they just earn more than they spend.
Lisa Van Gemert says
Oh, you are singing my song. If I had a dollar for every person who told me how “lucky” I was to be solid financially, I could fund a healthy retirement on that alone.
Just yesterday, a friend asked if I would help her with her money situation by teaching her what to do. I told her to do two things and then I would meet with her: 1) Make a budget [of course I gave more guidance than that], and 2) Take money out of her savings account and pay off the last two payments on her car.
Nope, that she wouldn’t do. “What if there’s an emergency?” She asked. I told her, “Your debt is an emergency.” She has two payments left! Two! And her savings account would still have over $1,000 to cover an emergency. She is in her mid-50s, and I just shake my head.
It’s not really that it matters financially if she pays off the car now or in two months, but it’s a sign of her commitment. If she won’t do that little thing, so easily done, she’s not going to be willing to give up the stupid stuff she’s doing.
ESI says
Exactly what we saw time and time again…at least from those who made it far enough to meet with us.
Dan Wick says
Congratulation on making your points without being self serving. The “I want it now” part of society may never come around to this type of thinking. A good start would be financial education in high school that starts people on the right track. Even if we only get 25% of the students to practice what they learn, it would beat the 1.6% you were able to convert. The older I get, the more I understand the words of my father when he was trying to guide me to success.
ESI says
It’s amazing how the older we get the smarter our parents become.
Josh says
Really it’s a sinusoidial function. Cosine would fit great. When your a little kid your parent knows everything, then nothing, then they have it all wrong then they know it all again. Alas in old age the downward part of the curve comes back
Steve says
My gratitude to retire early (age 57) is that it allows us time to travel in our RV as part of Habitat for Humanity’s RV Care A Vanners group and give back. I hear from many men that state they are “scared to retire because they don’t have a hobby”. So, I state right back that there are so many issues in our world that you can work towards by volunteering. We only build 2 homes per year now, but want to double that soon! We love the camaraderie we experience in every build group. Research it and find out how helping families you never met (but will) warms your heart for weeks after your 2 weeks of commitment. Highly encourage all retirees to think hard about how you can make a difference in others’ lives. If not building homes (no experience required), give thought on what talents you can share. Money is nice, but experience with others is SO much more meaningful. I retired from the Navy in 2001. Thankful for my pension, but SO grateful to have the means to travel in our wonderful country, building homes for families we are about to meet. God speed to all.
Laurie@ThreeYear says
People often ask for advice but it almost seems surface-level. They don’t really want to know how to make deep, lasting changes in their finances. It’s like if they know too much they’ll be forced to rethink their behavior and spending and they’re not willing to do that.
In the end, I think Mr. ThreeYear’s and my life is the best way we can encourage people to jump on the financial independence bandwagon. Watching us from afar and seeing the choices we’re now able to make inspires them more, I think, than any advice we give.
ESI says
Yes. being an example of what can be done is a great way to encourage others. I hope it rubs off on those around you.
Debbie says
Love your rant and it is 100% true no matter what the goal is. One does not win the Boston Marathon by doing the occasional neighborhood run, nor do they win an Oscar for having been in one high school play. Nothing is overnight and as I was telling someone just this week . . .
10,000 hours of practicing whatever it is, is what it takes to be an Expert.
I’ve always had that DNA gene to save. I say “no” to expensive trips in the now for my future 2nd childhood of retirement. People ask me how I can afford X and when I attempt to teach them how to budget with a future in mind rarely do they get through it much apply it. But they do continue to grumble.
As I have been told, “it is not for the person who needs it but for the person who works it”. I work it! Thanks for an excellent blog. Always enjoy and learn from reading it.
ESI says
Haha! Work it, indeed!!!
Julia says
Oh yes. I’m a personal trainer. Client says: “But I want to look like you – you’re 50 and in better shape than I am!” I say “Eat less, move more” (with a whole lot more words unless I’m tired and then that’s what I say). They say “ummm….but….”
We have made choices along the way (for me to stay home with kids, which meant a career shift for me) but we are working on ESI. I hear from friends that they “can’t” help kids with higher ed (um, you only had 18 years to save *something*), or that they will start working on retirement now that they’re in their 50s. Scary!!
ESI says
There are so many similarities between managing money and being healthy!
BTW, I wish the health equation was 80% exercise and 20% diet but it seems the other way around. 🙁
Julia says
Right? And to be able to eat what I ate a decade or two ago?? Ah well.
Steveark says
Great post. And I think it does apply to most people. But I think I’m an exception. I was a high earner and naturally frugal who married a frugal wife. Financial independence was assured with no effort and no discipline on my part. I did exactly what I wanted and never sacrificed for the future . I would have been miserable if I had forced myself to spend more or to have any debt. I did the right things with money because they felt good. I don’t think I can claim any credit for being pointed in the right direction from childhood. My life has been all about easy choices. I admire people who actually had to overcome mistakes through discipline and hard work like you. Work was just a fun hobby for me. And being slightly early retired is even more fun.
ESI says
Some people come by it naturally, for sure. So glad it was easy for you.
For us it was tougher initially, but once we got started I never felt like we were “losing out” by saving. In fact, as the commenter above noted, we weren’t really saving, we were buying — buying our freedom. 🙂
Joe says
Your story is the more common one around me. Probably has to do with the part of the country I live in.
Happy1 says
Great post. I have given financial advice that you have mentioned ESI. What I have discovered is you can not save someone from themselves. I have been told many times from friends and family that they will probably die in debt. They often subscribe to the phrase “He who dies with the most toys wins”. First you have to believe that you can achieve a goal then go through the steps to reach the goal. I think there are not enough “believers” in financial freedom. If your desire for financial freedom is firm, you will not work toward your goal.
Toocold says
I think the biggest challenge is changing habits, especially for those with an external locus on control. This is when clearly understanding the “why” becomes so important. For me, I vividly recall the moment of dread when I realized that we had accumulated $400k in debt with a newborn, new house, and car, all dependent on my single income with no savings. Math is usually the easy part. Taking the first step, then another, then another is so difficult but gets easier over time.
Jim @ Route To Retire says
Love this! This is a “cake and eat it too” predicament. In almost all cases, you need to stop the excuses and actually work toward what you want.
I have friends of mine that kick themselves and vent to me knowing that they’ll probably work for the rest of their lives… and then they go and buy a new car and they just built a new home.
Not everyone has the same goals something like FI or FIRE, but if you do or you’re just trying to get out of debt, you’ll need to actually spend the time and effort to make it happen. If not, quit your excuses and whining.
— Jim
Mark says
When I retired this year at 60, I presented this poem at my career retrospective. I think it sums nicely up what you are expressing.
The Waiting Place, by Dr. Seuss
Waiting for a train to go or a bus to come,
or a plane to go or the mail to come,
or the rain to go or the phone to ring,
or the snow to snow or waiting around for a Yes or No
or waiting for their hair to grow.
Everyone is just waiting…
Waiting for the fish to bite
or waiting for wind to fly a kite
or waiting around for Friday night
or waiting, perhaps, for their Uncle Jake
or a pot to boil, or a Better Break
or a string of pearls, or a pair of pants
or a wig with curls, or Another Chance.
Everyone is just waiting…
– Mark
ESI says
Nice…
Glen Ridge says
Couple of quick thoughts:
1. One may lead a horse to water, however, one cannot make the horse drink.
2. Public school educators who say they may never get ahead based on their “low” wages are
making huge excuses.
3. While agitating that others express interest but fail to follow through, why be bothered? God
bless them for the decisions they have made but they are following a different path in life.
Aesop’s ant and grasshopper come to mind.
Really enjoy your work here and appreciate the time and effort put into the content and thoughts.
Thanks!
ESI says
Ha! For #3, it would be less agitating if they wouldn’t tell me about it! LOL!
It’s mostly in the form of complaining too — they want success but don’t want to do anything that leads to success. Ugh.
MM Interview 55 says
I too have a bunch of relatives, former co-workers and friends that are also slow motion financial train wrecks (great phrase!).
I have tried to help, referred them to blogs such as this one, shared books I’ve read, and spreadsheets I’ve used… to no avail.
When I announced my retirement at 57, there was an endless stream of people coming in to my office wondering if was sick or perhaps had been asked to leave (I was actually asked to stay). They were all shocked that I was doing this on my own and that it was the result of a long and arduous plan. It was then that I’d point to the poster on my office wall that said… A goal without a plan…is just a wish.
Then they would say… I’m doomed to be here forever or I could never do that. Only one person asked to sit down and be counseled. She has made changes and seems to be on a better path.
ESI says
That’s a similar reaction I had at work when I announced I was retiring — people wondered if I was fired, if I had some sort of unknown problem, etc.
Almost two years later now when I run into former co-workers I think they are starting to believe that I really did just want to retire…
Alero01 says
While I don’t disagree that many people want their money problems solved without making any changes to their money habits, I lay the blame for this phenomenon on the fact that people aren’t willing to clearly articulate their priorities. People are faithful to their priorities, whether they consciously acknowledge them or not. Until people are willing to change their priorities, they won’t be willing to change their money behaviours. And for most people, saving for retirement is not a high priority.
That’s why, when asked to do pre-budget work or to give up their latte/muffin/lunch-at-work/cable/cigarettes/whatever, they balk. Giving up that item means altering their priorities and they won’t do it until such time as they’re ready to make that alteration. Yet, if you were to ask someone point-blank if they valued cable*** over retirement, they would undoubtedly say “No, of course not!” However, their action of paying money for cable every month instead of investing those dollars for the long-term is the clearest indication of that having access to marketing is a higher priority to them than their future retirement needs.
Priorities dictate spending. People may grumble and complain that they “can’t” achieve what others have achieved, but the bottom line is that they are hindered by their priorities. Until people’s priorities change, they will not change their financial path.
***Feel free to insert any other non-necessity of your choice.
Brian says
You make hard work sound so hard I worked fast food before and that was hard mind numbing work 4-6hrs of college was easier than 9hrs flipping burgers.
Spending 30% of your money on housing is hard having roommates or living in a smaller place is much easier.
I don’t think we need to make it sound like a nonstop work your ass off every day to do well in life.
20min workout gives you most of the benefits of a 40min workout.
I have two rentals that can cover most of my living expense. Its not hard to manage my friend has more stress why he has 4 properties and wants more.
Just make simple but hard choices once then sit back and live your life
We are not going to grow the FIRE pie if our message is change everything in your life and work 80hrs a week!
Just
Want less
Spend less
Invest the rest
Live more balanced
JayCeezy says
“A thought just occurred to me, right now…I have never, ever had an epiphany!” – Jon Dore
ESI, this column really hit home for me. Two levels: 1) I used to be that ‘complainer’. These complainers do, as you correctly note, just want a ‘quick fix’. My complaints were really my passive-aggressive way to ask for help, but I didn’t want help. I only wanted the results without the work, and lacked the self-awareness to realize I was just being annoying and frustrating to my friends.. 2) I have these same types of people in my life now, and I will listen once. If the same complaint comes up again from them, I will hold up a hand and say ‘is there anything new in your situation that you didn’t tell me last time?” This stops them in their tracks, and saves me from being a human crying-towel. I learned that from Scott Adams in “How To Fail…” and it works every time.
The worst ones come to me with complaints about an action they took that was in direct conflict with the ‘advice’ they claimed to want from me. In the last year, one former work colleague called to complain about a money-manager who put his retirement money in load-funds that lost value. Another friend of 30 years engaged a ‘consultant’ who was just starting a business-coaching practice, charged him $25,000, with negative results. Neither one remembered me telling them not to do what they did, and were irritated that I reminded them. And, they still refused to take responsibility! Ugh. Anyway, I love your rants, always!
P.S. – I also love the ‘war stories’, and put in another vote for “Rant Saturday!”
RT says
Please do a Saturday rant session, that would be very entertaining. I know I would look forward too it every week.
I was fortunate that when I wanted to start working for myself just over 30 years ago I asked the accountant my Dad used when I was growing up for guidance on setting up bookkeeping for the business. She asked me during that lunch meeting if my new wife and I ran our household budget like a set of business books.
She informed me we had to agree to keep a personal set of books for ourselves, just like she would keep my business books. Her belief was the family household was a business just like any other. It all went hand-in-hand.
She became our financial “mom” and put us on the right path. Helped us set our savings goals, buy for our first house and create our SEP and later ROTH plans.
My wife and I were truly blessed to have someone willing to teach us…but we were also willing students open to the lessons and wanting to learn. Each side of the ledger needs the other side to balance to be successful.
I have counseled several people on basic finance and budgeting that I am proud of the results. But the ones that are broke, in debt and can’t pay the bills, then proceed to make every excuse; or better yet, tell me I’m just wrong in my thought process about how their finances work, never ceases to amaze me.
So I help the few I can and cut off the rest like a bad cancer.
Retired at 58 and 56 here and loving every minute of it.
ESI says
I’ll consider a Saturday rant session now and then! Does anyone want to suggest some topics for me to rant about?
I do have my own, but you all may have some better ones. 😉
Razorback 14 says
Here’s an idea —
Peter Lynch was once quoted as saying this,
“Know what you own, and know why you own it.”
The rant would cover people not working a few extra hours self educating themselves in the area of building a plan, finding a great adviser, knowing why your investments are not growing, not monitoring your net month on a regular basis , etc.
Jody says
Make sure you have a once-a-month “Open Rant,” kind of like “Open Mic Night.”
It also seems the nearest and dearest have the problems with the mostest, so maybe a “Family/Friends Vent Session” would be cathartic? Think of it as your contribution to mental health care.
getagrip says
Some suggestions:
– The difference between thinking and knowing you need to do something, and actually doing it versus just sitting there and accepting what’s going on.
– Recognizing that you are responsible for your circumstances to a very large extent. The power of choice.
– Recognizing that hard work does not guarantee success, but rarely (and I’ve never found one) are people truly successful without putting in hard work.
– This idea of “immediate” that has become ingrained in our culture. We should be able to eliminate our debt, now. We should be able to reach our weight goals, now. I need access to that person, now.
– Fear of success (loss of friends, community, family).
Lily | The Frugal Gene says
Well, youuuuu feel better but you just gave me a massive rant of my own! Now I have the “gotta go, gotta go, gotta go right now” feeling too write about a follow-up xD
I can’t believe 1.6% was the outcome. I always thought it was me being a bad financial motivator for my friends. It’s like into one ear, out the other with people. Besides the $50 manicure, I have one friend addicted to Red Bull. They’re like 3 dollars per can!!! And she drinks 3 per day, that’s $300 on Red Bull a month!
But it’s no use, yet she gushes about how much money we have and if she had our money she would be “alright.”
ESI says
Haha! Our crowing “achievement” was a couple who:
* Were over-spending their incomes by $2k per month
* Had $50k in debt
* The husband had just lost his job (and he provided the only income)
* AFTER he lost his job, the family bought a boat
I wish I could go back as a fly on the wall and see our faces as they explained it to my wife and me.
MI45 says
Your rant is right on the money (so to speak). You are so right to champion the need for focus and hard work in order to ensure successfully practicing ESI. In reading your post and the subsequent comments, I can’t help but compare it to the power of habit. As a society, too many things happen for us quickly and we get way too used to that!
Changing old, lazy behaviors is a major commitment and those that are not willing to do it can apparently feel better by dissing our efforts.
Keep the rants coming!
MM Interview 55 says
Well what did you expect him to do with all that extra free time???
??
Suzie says
By all means, start a “rant Saturday.” Enjoyed the rant and the comments. I am reminded of the people I meet in recovery. I can’t tell you how many times over the years (31 last month) I have parroted “if you want what I have you have to do what I did.” Other times I would say I wish I could give you 30 years of sobriety but I can’t. People get over-whelmed by the enormity of a situation once it finally hits them full force after making one bad decision after another. That’s why recovery emphasizes one day at a time. Also people think they have to make massive change all at once. Sometimes (not always if a situation is particularly dire, ie unemployed and just bought a boat!) small changes over time do add up to bigger and better things.
Wealth Well Done says
Pretty dang good writing ESI! This is definitely Rockstar material. 🙂
While in prison from ’02-’12, I tutored men to get their GED’s for years so I can identify. Like you, I saw 1.6% of students I tutored get aggressive with their education and lifestyle changes and totally revolutionize their lives into something better. But the other 98.4% fell between doing nothing, or doing the bare minimum so they could get back to basketball games, TV shows, card games, or some other backwards activity that moved them further from a better life.
I know there’s a whole “privileged” concept that some people use to try to blanket-shame successful people, or make excuses for people who aren’t successful, and that entire concept irks me.
I’ve seen first hand what makes people successful, and what makes people unsuccessful while living in the lowest slums of society. Individual values and personal choices are a MUCH bigger determiner of success than the mob of people who attempt to measure a person by their own made-up equation of what being guilty of “privilege” looks like.
Once you understand that success in life is totally up to your attitude, your effort, and your choices, the quicker you can start living your dreams, rather than making excuses for yourself and others. I realize not everyone will like this perspective, but this perspective is what has helped me the most as I overcame the demons (drug use) in my own past.
Ty Roberts says
Reminds me of the “I’d do anything to …” crowd.
I’d do anything to have a six pack! (Doesn’t work out). I’d do anything to have a successful blog (doesn’t post regularly). I’d do anything to be rich (is lazy).
Fact is, most people won’t do anything for whatever it is they want because “anything” usually includes hard work, dedication and patience. It’s easier to wish for something than it is to earn it.
Michael says
Hey ESI
Great post, people do this professionally, financially and physically. Many people want the result but they do not want to put the work in. I have had employees tell me they do not “have time” to workout out or pick up extra appointments. I normally ask them what did you watch on tv last night? They normally rattle off 3 or 4 shows, or some movie.
“Everyone wants to be a bodybuilder, but no one wants to lift no heave … weights” Ronnie Coleman
Jason says
I think my biggest issue with people is they say they want help but really don’t and don’t take advice. I get that when I talk to my students. And I am not even close to FI. And you right about blogs. If I haven’t made more money it is my fault and no one else’s, but the content is ?
Peter Koch says
My granddad used to say “They are not in financial problems because they don’t have money. They are in problem because they don’t know with the money”. It’s not a money problem it’s a mindset issue.
Flawed Consumer says
Love the rant! Whilst I’m still in the learning phase when it comes to personal finances, I’ve often experienced this from a fitness and health perspective. I watch what I eat and I run every lunch break from work 5 days a week, rain, hail or shine. Work colleagues often make comments about how crazy I am, or how they wish they had my metabolism, etc. Simple fact is, you get out of things what you put in.
K D says
Amen!
I see this all the time and I also see a similar thing with people that want to be healthier. They don’t want to change their eating/drinking or exercise patterns. Has anyone ever correlated financial health with physical health?
Paul says
Well said. And you can add a P.S.: “…but it’ll be easier for you than it was for me ’cause I’m giving you the blueprint.” Suspect that’ll go over like a lead balloon 🙂
BSue says
Saturday Rant idea – To Rant or Not – Different views of young adults’ aha (or not) financial epiphanies.
For example, our two sons thought the financial indoctrination they got at home was normal until they went to college. After college, they were stunned at the incredible value of having no college loans that were forcing their friends to take jobs they didn’t like just to pay their college debts.
That initial advantage has grown as they have aged up into their 30s, and they sometimes comment about the slow financial train wrecks of their peers. And then there’s the bad advice they get from “professionals” who want them to spend more to save on taxes. Their grandfather always said that paying taxes was a high grade problem (and much better than the alternative!).
Smile If You Dare says
Thanks for the rant. The problem as I see it, as you so well described, is that people want the instant solution to a decades-long problem.
The problem is that if a person wants to change their life, they NEED TO CHANGE THEIR LIFE! …Not easy, when people want to keep doing what they are doing but get different results.
If I want to be a little more charitable, I could say that people are “opinion shopping”… looking to see if anyone out there has a different perspective that could help them with less pain then other opinions. Of course that is not realistic, but realism is not a strong point for them.
As in the proverbial addiction decline, only when the afflicted hits “rock bottom” do they reach the understanding that they need to do whatever it takes. Until then, “whatever it takes” is not withiing their world view.
Kyle says
While on the topic of rants, it seems your comment section has become a classified ad for others’ blog sites.
ESI says
I’m not sure what you mean…do you mean there are a lot of bloggers commenting on this post?
Kyle says
Yes, in general – it’s probably some sort of bias but it “feels like” I’m seeing more bloggers posting on PF sites promoting their own posts/sites without really bringing much to the conversation.
On a side note, this post was a good read. I enjoy your site and have been reading for quite a long time, even back to the original FMF days. Too bad Old Limey doesn’t seem to be around anymore.
Dash2Retire says
Can you elaborate on the organization where you volunteered? I would love to find an opportunity like that in our area. I’ve thought about volunteering in this field, but unsure as to how to find a reputable organization whose heart is really to help (rather than make money).
ESI says
They are no longer around (probably because of the low participation rate). Closest thing these days would be a Dave Ramsey class of some sort.
Jody says
They do have them, I stumbled across one when I was looking for debt help 6 or so years ago. I can’t remember the name of the group, sorry, but the volunteers were retired financial people from various fields. I did get some hits just now when I googled “financial counseling volunteer.”
My now-ex-husband and I wound up getting help through MMI, which was the second best financial thing to happen to me. The best was stumbiling across BudgetsAreSexy.com after my divorce, which made me get my $ together.
Alex C says
While I agree with the rant and other comments made I can’t help but think that lots of the commentators are older and looking for self validation, and are kinda angry at the choices and attitudes other hold of them.
I really don’t care if someone YOLO’s his or her whole life, is in debt and has a crappy financial situation. If they hold a passing slight at my solid financial position I really don’t think it’s for too long.
Alex C says
… and while I’m ranting. I get kinda jealous and the new cars, flat screen TVs and perpetual holidays of those with a YOLO mindset.
I just rarely indulge myself that’s all.
getagrip says
Anytime you deviate from the norm, there are those that want to pull you back to what they think is right. Right now the norm is pushed by advertisers who push you to spend your money rather than save, and the bulk believe it. Then again, sometimes the Jones can afford all that they have and more, and it’s not their problem if you are hurting yourself trying to keep up with them. I’ve friends who have been gifted with better starts and better opportunities in life and they have significantly more than I do and envy does rear it’s head on occasion. I just remind myself they are my friends, not my competition, and so I’m happy for them. My competition is ensuring I’m further ahead today than I was yesterday.
Franklin Bach says
Nice rant and spot on for most points. Unless one is watching sports, no one cares about about the process, only measured results. Only the few work on robust processes to get their own desired results. Perhaps it is only 10-20% of the working population before FI.
Marketing stuff or a site is an exercise in dilutions in time and the process requires consistent efforts and the proper tools. Like missing a month or two of gym time, atrophy begins, same for marketing a blog. Consistency drives desired results.
I think you’re off base on your comment about blog writers. There actually are people that create blogs without the sole purpose of generating revenue. We’re not all coders that can quickly set up a site and fix every bug that Word Press can trip us up.
Some writers use the venue to code messages to their kids or their own personal circle of influence to communicate stories of self discovery in personal finance and best practices.
Crystal says
LOL, this reminds me of my post a few years ago “Hey Whiners, Bite Me!”. Yep, lots of whiners that won’t change and then complain about it. Yay…
Ms ZiYou says
Wow, the lack of follow-through is really shocking, especially as these people have already made the first step there.
I used to think everyone was like me and put in the max effort all the time, it was a real revelation when I realised loads of people coast through life. Like really coast……….
I’m noticing it more and more working in different environments – there is such a difference between high performing corporate > middling corporate > quasi govt > govt > charity. When companies start business wide programs telling their staff to be courteous and reply to emails you have to worry about the quality of staff!
Sean @ Frugal Money Man says
“When I explain to them that the basics come down to E, S, and I and I lay it out there, they say, “I could never do that.”
What they mean is, “I don’t want to do that.””….
This is what it actually comes down to. It boils down to an individuals desire to get out of their current mindset, and change it for the better.
I run into the exact same problem when discussing finances with my family/friends. They are all interested in my process of accumulating money/assets, yet when I tell them that it is essentially simple “earnings, saving, and investing”, they don’t want to hear it.
People are hoping for a Bitcoin type of answer that puts fantasy $$$ into their accounts in an instance. Doesn’t work that way. Its decades worth of aggressive saving and investing.
Great article!
p.s. I once had an old high school classmate reach out and ask how I invest…Once I told him how simple it was, he told me “Index investing is for sheep…I’m going to invest in Bitcoin.”
Apex says
Come on now. Admit it. There is a secret. Everyone who has made it knows the secret. You just won’t share it. That’s why they lose interest so quick. It is clear you are just hoarding the secret.
Rich bastards!
🙂
Robert says
I remember my first few days working out with some really exceptional people in a garage gym. These guys were college athletes and special forces operators. The workouts they posted on the board seemed impossible. I would think most days when I looked at that board for weeks, “No one can do that.” And then I would chip away at it. I was slow and they made it look much easier than I did, but it wasn’t impossible and the most valuable thing I learned in that garage was Adidas’s tagline. “Impossible is nothing.”
I wonder if there are effective ways to bridge that gap in perception from “impossible” to resolve. It reminds me of the ending of C.S. Lewis’s Narnia series where the dwarfs have made it to paradise but they believe so completely that they are in hell that no one can convince them otherwise. The older example is Plato’s images on a cave wall.
How do you show someone a richer reality? Did you find anything that worked in those years counseling, ESI?
ESI says
The only thing that really worked was they had to want it — really want it.
They had to be so sick of where they were that they would do anything to get it right.
There were very few of those people.
GYM says
That’s a great rant.
People complain but they don’t take action.
My friend and I were supposed to meet up for a walk because she wanted to exercise. We didn’t end up meeting up because it was pouring rain. She was interested in the Youtube videos I workout with at home so I sent her the link she said she would do it that day. Well she didn’t end up doing it (but did go for her walk in the rain), but said she would do it tomorrow and asked I send her a text to remind her. I did. She didn’t do it the next day. Then I gave up and knew she wasn’t going to do the workout.
I don’t like to hand hold when people don’t follow through 🙂 so I stopped nagging at her to do the video even though she hinted that she wanted me to text her again!
This was the same thing a few years ago when she wanted to learn to invest. I told her to start up a TD e-series account (an e-fund that is easy to set up, low fees of 0.5% or less) but she never did. She did do something similar though eventually hah 🙂
Jon Baron says
Wow, could not agree more! As a few of the other comments mentioned unfortunately laziness extends to an entire lifestyle not just finance. Videos on YouTube about how to get six pack abs have hundreds of millions viewers yet America’s obesity rate is higher than it has ever been.
In my opinion there is nothing more frustrating than working with someone who wants to make a change and then consistently doesn’t take the steps required of them. Losers will always find an excuse in life!
Act or be acted upon. Take control of your life or let your life take control of you. Far too many people choose the later.
RG says
Lots of wisdom in this rant (blog post) and comments. I especially like the premise that FIRE is simple but not easy. When I describe to people what allowed me to retire at age 58, with four kids, and putting them all through college, I just say it’s not rocket science, you just have to earn a good enough living to cover necessities with some $’s leftover, spend less than you earn, and save and invest the rest regularly, using broad-based mutual funds in an allocation that suits your risk tolerance, and continue to do that from an early age throughout the years (ESI, in a nutshell, from way back when). I was lucky, I had parents who lived through the depression and remained frugal as I was growing up in the 60s and 70s, when it wasn’t fashionable or cool, even then, and of course I, as an adolescent, rebelled against their frugality and believed at the time in living for today. However, what helped me as much as anything, once on my own, was the great feeling I got from saving, and seeing my investments grow, not just from investment returns, but also or even mainly at first from additions to principal, made on a regular basis. I don’t know if it was Jean Chatzky or Suze Orman who described this recently, but one of them said that if people would take as much pleasure (or more so) from saving and watching their net worth grow as they do from their spending (and also resist the impulse to be jealous of other’s possessions), a lot of their problems would be solved. The saving vs spending choice would no longer be seen as deprivation, but would become the ticket, not necessarily to riches, but to security and freedom, which doesn’t break down, become obsolete, or need to be replaced with something “better,” like so many things people spend their money on. There are so many media messages and so much advertising encouraging people to have it all now that it can be hard for people, particularly ones who did not grow up with good examples of hard work and thrift, to make the choices that leads to FIRE, but ultimately, whether made consciously or not, it is a choice, and one with consequences for the rest of their lives. And this message is not a new concept. It has been lived, and preached, for decades, but sadly falls on deaf ears.
Jen says
Wow, reading through this post and these comments I have to wonder if I live in some sort of weird wonderful bubble 🙂 Yes, my family, friends, colleagues, and I from time to time complain to each other about things in our lives we wish could be better and that we have some sort of control over (that we could lose weight, save more money, etc.), but we’re all self-aware enough to know that the only reason we’re not taking the steps toward resolving whatever it is we’re complaining about is because we have no desire to do so. I’ve never heard any adult say “I wish I could lose weight” without also saying “but that would mean I’d have to change my diet which I’m not willing to do at this time” or something similar. I will count myself blessed that I am surrounded by such non-aggravating people.
Financial Pilgrimage says
Most of the best things in life are the result of delayed gratification or hard work.
Many people have excuses and there are many others who have the deck stacked against them depending on their upbringing. These can be complicated issues that I am trying to better understand.
Either way, I agree with the overall premise of this article that you have to put the time in to get results.
Jason says
Great post, John!
Reminded me of a quote I’ve been sharing a lot lately:
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.
– Thomas Edison
Both the quote and your post are great reminders that there are no shortcuts, just hard work, and persistence. No handouts!
– Jason
timeinthemarket says
Many people these days simply lack discipline and want to blame everyone but themselves. It’s sad but it’s the reality of life as many simply lack self-awareness. People don’t seem to understand that life isn’t just the repeated pursuit of short term bursts of happiness, it’s building something that will last and make you content throughout life.
Chris @ Mindful Explorer says
You have things figured out, your’re on point with the path and how to get it done. Nothing is easy and for those odd chances that it is easy, well that is an odd twist of fate and just be thankful. I enjoy reading blog posts that are written to be bold and blunt much like this one. Also I have a tough time getting through blog posts for many people now as they aren’t authentic. Like you pointed out they are thrown together “get rich quick” words with SEO tactics and not the real “them” that I want to read and learn about.
Put in the hard work, be authentic and inspire others
The Vigilante says
This is terribly unfair to those of us who are lower on the totem pole. You just don’t get it.
I need my A/C set to 40 degrees Fahrenheit in the summer. I need my whiskeys to keep me warm. You need to make me rich. Go.
DS says
Terrific post! Growth requires discipline, and discipline is much harder to sell than an immediate fix (I.e., buying that new car/purse/toy you “need”).
D says
Spot On!!!
I can’t tell you how many times my husband and I have been asked how we do “it”! Typically when we begin to explain how we live under our means (as well as ESI) , most of the reactions are anger or insult… 😵 The conversation usually ends pretty fast… sad, because it is painful to watch them throw their hard earned money and life away (as well as get into unbearable debt)… 🙁 Not to mention the overwhelming number that ask us for loans, to co-sign or borrow our assets. My husband and I had to make a rule early in our marriage to always say “NO”. But, everyone has a right to their own life style.
I don’t regret one second of the 80 hour work weeks, effort to get multiple degrees, or living on less than I can afford. All of our life choices have enabled us to enjoy and help our children, as well as live a very comfortable life… 🙂
Naomi says
This is a great post – and exactly correct. I’m a blogger and have similar frustrations, and I am going to save this post to share with others.
And I’m motivated by your words!